Hearts of Oak Podcast

The 1916 Project: Planned Parenthood and Abortion's Cultural War

Hello, dear listeners!
Welcome to another thoughtful episode of the Hearts of Oak podcast, where we dive into the depths of cultural and philosophical narratives shaping our world. Today, we're joined by a guest whose journey into activism and intellectual exploration has been both inspiring and provocative. Together, we'll explore the tapestry of history, politics, and theology that underpins one of the most divisive issues of our time: the sanctity of life. So, grab your headphones, sit back in your favorite chair, and join us on this journey of discovery and dialogue. Let's embark on this conversation with open hearts and minds.*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
Connect with Seth Gruber:X - https://x.com/sgruber91/mediawebsite: https://sethgruber.comSeth Gruber Show - https://amzn.eu/d/5ImkBqyYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@SethGruberShow
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Fear, Freedom, and Filming: The Truth behind BBC’s Unvaccinated programme 14:27

In this episode, Nazarin Veronica delves into her journey from questioning mainstream COVID-19 narratives to becoming a vocal critic of vaccine mandates and media manipulation. She reflects on her isolation during lockdown which led to skepticism towards official information, resulting in strained relationships due to her dissenting views. Veronica discusses her efforts to spread awareness, like handing out leaflets, her disillusionment with mainstream media tactics through her experience with the BBC documentary "Unvaccinated," where she felt her views were misrepresented to serve an agenda. Post-documentary, she leveraged social media to correct the narrative, gaining unexpected support. Now, years later, she sees slow shifts in public discourse towards vaccine safety but remains vigilant about government overreach and continues advocating for critical thinking and personal liberty.
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
Interview recorded 31.10.24
Connect with NazarinInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nazarinveronica/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nazarin.doodman𝕏: https://x.com/nazarinveronicaTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nazarinveronicaYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@nazarinveronica1The Audacity Network: https://www.theaudacitynetwork.com/
 
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Interview recorded 11.11.24

Calum Muller: Faith, Science, and the Unborn: A Doctor's Perspective on Life

Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of Hearts of Oak, where today we delve deep into the heart of one of the most contentious debates of our time: the right to life. In this episode, we're joined by a distinguished guest, a medical doctor and researcher who has become a pivotal figure in the UK's pro-life movement.
 
Prepare for an insightful conversation as we explore his transformative journey from a pro-choice stance to becoming an ardent advocate for the unborn, driven by scientific evidence and ethical reasoning. We'll discuss the current cultural landscape in the UK, where despite a prevailing pro-choice sentiment, a new wave of youthful pro-life activism is emerging, challenging the status quo.
 
This episode promises to unravel:
The ethical and scientific arguments for when life begins.
The role of religious beliefs in the pro-life movement.
Why there's a growing disconnect between UK law and public opinion on abortion.
How the pro-life movement is evolving, engaging with media, politics, and church leaders to drive change.
Join us as we navigate through these complex issues, understanding the motivations behind one man's mission to change hearts and minds, and why he believes now more than ever, the pro-life message needs to be heard.
 
This is not just a debate; it's a call to action, a challenge to think, and a journey into the heart of what it means to champion life in all its vulnerability and potential.
 
Tune in, and let's challenge the tide together.*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.Interview recorded 31.10.24
Connect with Calum𝕏 | https://x.com/DrCalumMillerWebsite| https://www.calummiller.org/
 
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUKWEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/Transcript:
(Hearts of Oak)
And hello Hearts of Oak, thank you so much for joining us once again with a brand new guest, and that is Calum Miller.
Calum, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for having me
Hearts of Oak
Great to have you, and of course, I was at the March for Life in the UK, which kind of spurred my thinking, and you're a name that I've seen in many different areas, but actually being at that event solidified it.
So I want to get your thoughts on that, the UK pro-life movement, your background, all of that. But people can find you at Dr. Calum Miller on X (formerly Twitter), and of course, callumsblog.com is your blog.
All the links will be in the description whether people are watching or listening; everything is there, so make sure to make use of those links.
But, Calum, your background as a doctor, you're involved, very involved in the pro-life movement.
Maybe I could just step back a little bit and ask you to introduce yourself to our viewers before we get into the actual issue at hand.
Sure, yes. I'm a medical doctor, and I actually became pro-life while I was at medical school.
So I grew up, like most of the UK, just being pro-choice, at least most of Great Britain, at least.
And I think, yeah, it was being at medical school, seeing the reality of life in the womb, seeing the reality of abortion and its impact on the woman as well as the child that convinced me to be pro-life.
So I still work as a doctor.
I'm also a researcher on the topic of abortion and various other bits and pieces, but that's from an ethical, medical, and legal perspective, whatever it might be.
So I try to look at it from every angle and publish on that. And so I've done quite a bit of academic work on the topic as well.
And then I do a lot of work just speaking and writing about this as well, so yeah, I didn't expect to end up here when I started medical school, but that's what I've ended up doing because I think it's one of the most important things that can be spoken about, so here I am.
Maybe ask you what actually changed your mind?
I want to delve into that, your background, and what kind of led you to that.
But what kind of led up to that?
Because most people, I guess, shrug their shoulders, and they think, you know, if it's people's choice, and you want to do this or that.
People don't really think about it in the UK, I don't think, as much as intentionally as maybe in the US, where there are two kind of blocks on each side, and you have heated, and sometimes even constructive arguments.
In the UK, it just seems to be, "Bleh," just kind of shrug your shoulders.
So, what kind of persuaded you? What led you, as you were studying as a doctor, to the position that actually life in the womb matters?
Yeah, it was a number of things, really.
I think being a doctor, you have to think about it at least a little bit.
That's not to say most doctors think about it much or have a well-formed view on it.
But at least in my case, it was something that came up in medical school.
And so that sort of provoked me a bit more into thinking about what I thought about it.
And then also, you know, reading about it, it was very much academic arguments, you know, thinking through the idea of human rights and equality that convinced me.
I thought if humans are equal, then they have equal rights, and that has to include every human.
And, therefore, the main question in abortion is just: Is this a human being?
And I was, you know, I knew from medical school that it was.
And therefore, for me, it was very simple: that if this is a human being, as science teaches, and if every human being is equal, as most of us claim to believe, then it just follows really logically that we should be pro-life and protect the child in the womb just as much as anyone else. And so that was a big part of it.
I think, you know, part of what brought it up, you're right, is globalization which normally makes people—normally it's sort of very progressive Western values going to other parts of the world and making them more liberal.
In my case, I think globalization took me the other direction to a more traditional view because, you know, I grew up in a very sort of insular progressive country, and it was actually exposure to the fact that most people around the world don't agree with this, and most of them are pro-life, that was part of the thing that got me to reconsider in the first place.
So, yeah, it was a mix of a whole bunch of things: experience, looking at the arguments, but at its core, it was really that conviction about human equality, human rights, and seeing that if we really believe in them, then they have to apply to everyone and not just the people that it's convenient for now.
There are two approaches: at the March for Life, you have a strongly Christian approach in that the understanding of the Bible is that we are made in the image of God, and therefore, everyone has value, no matter where they are or who they are; everyone is equal and has value.
But you've also got, as you pointed out, an ethical argument, a philosophical argument, which is a completely different take on it.
What about you as a Christian, then? How did that affect your approach to this idea?
Yeah, it wasn't actually a huge part of what convinced me because, you know, I had Christian convictions before I became pro-life, and I thought that was compatible.
Later on, I realized that Christianity does have a clear position on it, but it was really the arguments about science and philosophy that convinced me primarily.
And I think one of the striking things in that sense is that the Bible doesn't actually say when life begins exactly.
It talks about conception a little bit, and it clearly respects that there is life before birth. And so, you know, at least at some point before birth, life begins.
But of course, fertilization hadn't been discovered when the Bible was written.
And so when people say, you know, you only believe human rights begin or life begins at fertilization because the Bible says so or because of your religion, it's actually the opposite.
The Bible doesn't mention fertilization; no one in religion mentioned fertilization until it was discovered scientifically.
And it was because of that scientific discovery that Christians said, "Oh, OK, so we knew that life was valuable from the beginning because the Bible teaches that life is valuable from the beginning.
But we didn't know when the beginning was. But now that science has shown us when the beginning is, at fertilization, the Christian position, informed by science, tells us that life begins at fertilization and should be protected from that."
And so I think clearly, you know, I think if you believe in Christianity and you believe in science, then there's no way to sort of support abortion.
But in terms of that claim about when life begins, I think that's ultimately a scientific claim, not a religious one.
And so anyone can agree with it.
And if, for some other reason, say you're not religious, you just believe that all human beings are equal and should be protected regardless.
Regardless, if you believe that and you believe in science, you should also be pro-life.
So religion certainly supports the pro-life position in many cases, but it's not needed for it. And so in my own journey, it was not really connected to religion.
It was only later that I sort of united them in that sense.
Okay, let me see where I go in this, because I want to pick up.
Those are two aspects, I think, and it's interesting your view of being a Christian, and yet not necessarily being pro-life.
I mean, I have a, to me, it's a red line as a Christian that actually we speak up, as Proverbs says, for the voiceless, and who has no voice more than the unborn.
Literally, they're not able to speak, and therefore it is up to us to speak up for them.
So for me, even that Proverbs is enough to actually step up. And if no one comes and says, you know, that's not life because of X, Y, and Z, if there's no argument for that side, then surely the flip side has to be that you speak up for that.
And I have, I mean, I've talked to, I grew up Baptist, now in a Pentecostal church, but talked to a lot of C of E vicars who struggle with this and privately have a view, but publicly seem unable to speak.
And it seems to be a fear of what man may say, as opposed to a fear of God.
I mean, what have your conversations been like with different Christian leaders on actually speaking up on this?
Yeah, I mean, I don't think your experience is unusual, especially as someone who goes to an Anglican church. I think we're all, every Anglican is, humiliated by the quality of our leadership, I think, especially at present.
That's not about my church; my church leaders are great, but I think everyone knows at this point that Welby's a bit of a clown, and no one, you know, thinks he has much courage or credibility.
And so certainly, you know, we don't expect anything remotely controversial or that might upset the sort of powers that be from Anglican leaders, but it's not only an Anglican problem.
You know, the only time I've ever heard abortion preached about in a church, as someone who has been going to church most of my life, was I only heard it once, and that was when I was giving a sermon.
And that was an invitation by a very bold pastor because he wanted it to be preached on, and that's the only time I've ever heard it preached on in a UK church.
So this is a huge problem across denominations.
And I think ultimately there's a vicious circle because, you know, people will not know how to speak about abortion in a winsome way.
So they don't speak about it. And therefore, the next generation or the people in the congregations don't know what to think about it.
And then if they don't know what to think about it, they're even less likely to speak about it in future.
And that just sort of reinforces itself. And so I meet quite, you know, the Christian position on this is about as clear as anything could be.
It's like absolutely clear. You know, the evidence from church history and from the Bible for the pro-life view is as good or better than the evidence for the Trinity, which is like a core foundational Christian doctrine.
And yet I meet a lot of Christians, even otherwise orthodox, kind of Bible-believing Christians who just don't know what to think about this issue.
And that is because of this reinforced silence on the issue.
So, I would say that in some cases, it is just cowardice; in many cases, it's just cowardice, but in many cases, it's because the church leader might want to speak about this but genuinely has never seen it spoken about in a way that is convincing, full of grace, and full of compassion, and you know, winsomeness.
And I think in that situation, at the very least, our job is to present to those pastors and church leaders a way of communicating this message that is winsome, that does make sense, that is compassionate and full of grace and the gospel.
And so, yeah, I think, you know, that once we've sort of equipped church leaders with that, then I think we will see which church leaders have a sort of genuine fear that they're willing to overcome once they're equipped and which church leaders are just always going to be too scared, no matter what you do.
And I think there'll always be a mix of both in churches, but we're hoping that, you know, over time, once people are equipped, they'll be able to speak out more, and that a lot of them will be willing to do so.
I'm wondering, is it a cultural issue?
I remember visiting a church in Houston, and in the middle of the sermon, they emphasized the importance of life.
I’ve seen similar moments in other large U.S. churches, where they pause to discuss that life is sacred, including life in the womb, which they believe God has created.
There seems to be a greater focus on the sanctity of life there. In contrast, you’re right—it's rare to come across that in UK churches.
For example, in my own church, KT, the former pastor once issued an apology during a Sunday service.
This happened after J. John, a Church of England canon, was speaking on the Ten Commandments. When he came to "murder," he paused to say that taking the life of the unborn is also murder.
He spoke about it briefly, emphasizing forgiveness at the cross, and then moved on. That Sunday, the church leader made a public apology in case anyone was offended.
But when it comes to weighing offense against addressing the issue of life, I’d prioritize preventing the loss of life over potential offense.
Is this reluctance to speak out part of a cultural issue—a difference between transatlantic perspectives?
Yeah, I mean, as you say, there are some great church leaders in the UK.
I'm not saying every church leader avoids this topic; J. John is a fantastic example of someone who’s been willing to speak about it.
Vaughan Roberts from St. Ebbe’s in Oxford is another example, and there are others, so they’re not the only ones.
We’re very grateful for church leaders like that.
Even among church leaders who are somewhat fearful of addressing this issue, I think there are two main reasons. One is a kind of legitimate worry—misplaced, perhaps, but still legitimate. The other is less defensible.
The legitimate worry is from those who are genuinely fearful that if they speak out on this issue, they will turn away people who are not Christians, making them less open to Christianity.
Of course, Christianity is even more important than the issue of abortion, if we frame it that way.
So, there’s this worry that if someone is turned off from coming to church or listening to anything we say because of this issue, they might never come to believe in the end.
Their concern is for the most important thing.
While I think this worry may be misplaced, I understand it.
Then, there are others who are less concerned about the evangelistic impact and simply worried about, as you say, causing offense.
The Bible doesn’t teach us to go out and deliberately cause offense, but it does tell us to speak the truth. If the truth offends, then so be it. As I mentioned, there are ways to address this issue that are winsome, compassionate, and full of grace.
There are certainly ways of discussing it that lack those qualities and can be genuinely harmful.
But if a church leader is unwilling to even broach the topic in a good, winsome, and compassionate way, then I think there's a real problem.
I would say the U.S. has less of an issue with this, but it’s still present.
Many pastors there avoid discussing it, and there is a lot of confusion. Globally, one might expect church leaders in conservative regions to be more vocal, but even then, the response is mixed.
For example, in many parts of sub-Saharan Africa, church leaders are very vocal, clear, and forthright about this issue, without fear or hesitation. In parts of the Caribbean—though not everywhere—even where abortion is mostly illegal and Christianity is widespread within a traditional culture, there is often significant hesitation among church leaders to address it.
So, even in traditionally conservative cultures worldwide, the response is mixed."
Okay, let's look at legislation.
Every country will be different, of course. In the UK, there has certainly been a push to extend access to abortion up to birth, depending on certain circumstances.
In contrast, as you look further east in Europe, abortion tends to have more restrictions.
We also have the issue of buffer zones.
Could you update the viewers and listeners on the current situation regarding abortion in the UK?
Yeah, so in the UK, we have a law that, in practice, allows abortion for any reason up to 24 weeks, or six months.
By this point, the baby is quite developed; they’re viable from about 21 to 22 weeks and could survive outside the womb without their mother.
The baby is able to feel pain, has a heartbeat, brain waves, can taste food, and so forth.
They’re very much developed, yet the UK allows abortion up to six months.
If the baby has a disability, the law permits abortion until birth.
Although it specifies a 'serious handicap,' initially intended for life-limiting conditions—where, for example, the baby might only survive a few days—in practice, nearly any disability can justify abortion until birth.
We know of cases where abortions for Down syndrome, for instance, have taken place in the 8th or even the 9th month in the UK.
It’s also important to clarify that, technically, abortion is not fully legal for any reason up to six months.
The law specifies that it’s legal to protect the physical or mental health of the woman. Originally, this was meant to be fairly strict, requiring two doctors to genuinely assess that carrying the baby to term would pose a significant mental or physical health risk.
However, in practice, you might go to the doctor—or sometimes only a nurse—and say you don’t want a baby.
If you indicate that this would cause you emotional difficulty, that counts as a mental health reason, qualifying you for an abortion.
So, in theory, we only have abortion for health reasons or for disability in the UK, but in practice, it’s permitted for almost any reason up to six months.
This is much more permissive than in most of Europe, where abortion is usually allowed only up to 12 weeks, if at all.
For example, Germany has a 12-week limit, and I believe some Scandinavian countries, like Norway and Denmark, also have similar 12-week limits.
Sweden’s limit is 18 weeks, and, as everyone knows, Sweden is considered one of the most progressive countries in the world.
Even they have a limit at 18 weeks, while in the UK, we’re a month and a half beyond that. This makes us an outlier—not only globally but even within Western Europe—as we are far more extreme.
That’s why over 70% of women in the UK believe the law should be stricter than it currently is.
Despite a population that is 95% pro-choice, most people recognize that our law is far too extreme and believe it needs to be tightened
I mean, does the law state when life begins? Because that's what it boils down to. In the UK, if you talk to liberals—or even family members, as I have—they seem to believe the birth canal somehow bestows the properties of life. The moment a baby passes through that point, it’s alive, but 20 seconds before, it’s not.
I think that’s not really a scientific definition of when life begins; it's more of a positional argument rather than one grounded in the actual question of life.
So, in the UK, is there any definition of when life begins? Because that seems to be the central issue.
Yeah, not really.
I mean, in terms of when a child is fully protected, it would be when birth is complete.
There has actually been a bit of legal debate about partial birth abortion, which is when the baby is half delivered.
You deliver the legs and body, and then the head is still just inside the birth canal, and an abortion is performed at that stage of pregnancy.
It’s absolutely barbaric and grotesque, but it seems to be legal in the UK.
So even halfway through delivery, it appears that an abortion can still be performed, meaning that the baby is not considered a full legal person who is protected at that point.
The law does actually define pregnancies in two different ways.
When measuring the time limit for abortion, it states that it is up to 24 weeks.
This is actually measured from the last period of the woman, which is two weeks before conception.
In that sense, it doesn't define pregnancy as beginning at conception; instead, it says pregnancy begins two weeks before conception, at the last period.
However, when defining what abortion is versus contraception—what's the difference between contraception and abortion—the law defines pregnancy as beginning at implantation, which occurs a week or two after conception.
The reason for this is that there are forms of contraception that act after fertilization, technically causing very early abortions.
This makes doctors and contraceptive manufacturers very unhappy because it means they would be subject to more regulation.
Therefore, they prefer to classify all of these drugs as contraceptives, since the law is less strict about contraceptives.
So, in the UK, the law defines a legal person as only being recognized once birth is fully completed.
And it defines pregnancy in two different ways: either from the last period or from implantation, neither of which is conception, which is the scientifically accurate beginning of life.
So, the law in the UK is a total mess; it's completely contradictory and inconsistent.
All I can say is that while the law might not define it clearly, if I were asked in my medical school exams when a human organism begins, I would say that it starts at conception.
There's only one answer that would be remotely acceptable, and that would be fertilization.
That's the scientifically obvious answer.
I mean, how is it that someone can go through the medical field?
I went through aerospace, so it’s very different.
But in the medical field, how is it that someone decides to become a doctor?
They must have the intellectual ability and, more importantly, the desire to do good; they want to help.
That’s what they want to do in their career.
I scratch my head thinking about someone who decides they want to be a doctor. What do you want to do?
Well, I like to kill babies.
Is that really an option on the list of motivations?
How does someone move from wanting to help people to that being a part of their profession?
As someone in a non-medical field, it’s quite confusing.
Yeah, I think part of the answer is that doctors themselves and some of the public have an unreasonably inflated view of doctors.
You know, a lot of doctors do a lot of what they do for goodwill and get into it with good intentions.
But it's also a highly prestigious career that earns a decent salary; there are many reasons why people want to be a doctor other than because it helps people.
And to be honest, if you really want to help people, there are much more effective things you can do.
You could go into banking, earn a lot of money, and then donate it all; that would actually have an impact hundreds or thousands of times bigger than being a doctor.
So, that's not to say all doctors are just in it for the money and the prestige, but there's a lot of that, and there's certainly a lot of pride in the medical profession.
So, I don't think we should just have this view that doctors are just saintly people.
They might be better than average morally, but that's not saying much, and certainly not all of them are better than average.
In terms of the ones who might get into it for reasons of goodwill and good intentions, I think it's best reflected by there's a paper on second-trimester abortion.
by what's her name, Lisa—I've forgotten her surname, I'm afraid—Lisa Harris, I think it is, and she writes a paper on second-trimester abortion, and she says we need to stop being dishonest about this; this is, in some ways, a horrendous procedure.
And she describes it; she talks about, for example, when she was doing an abortion and she pulled the legs off the baby, and at the same time, she felt her own baby kicking inside of her because she was pregnant while she was doing this abortion. And she said, like, tears were flowing down her face, and this sort of thing.
It was a very visceral experience.
And so, she's, in that sense, quite open and honest about what abortion involves, and she even says explicitly in that article that abortion is violence.
She doesn't hold back; she says abortion is clearly violence, but she says it's an even greater violence to force women to stay pregnant against their will.
And so, I don't know if every abortion practitioner thinks of it that way.
Probably not.
Probably many of them are in total denial and just try to sort of deny the fact that they're doing anything violent.
They're probably just trying to treat it as no big deal.
But when you get an honest doctor who really knows what they're doing and still does it, I think that has to be something like the justification that they think, "Yes, of course, this is violence, and it's horrible, but it's even worse to force a woman to stay pregnant, and therefore, it's the lesser of two evils."
So that's how some people would think of it, at least.
I want to get your kind of view on the pro-life movement in the UK.
You've been very heavily involved in campaigning for that, being a high-profile activist, and you emceed the March for Life event a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago in London.
And I'm embarrassed to say that was the first one I attended, and I attended the seminars in the morning and then went for the march in the afternoon to Parliament Square. But 10 years of that, do you want to give us an insight?
I mean, half of our viewers are US viewers; I think it'd be good for them to also understand what the situation is in the UK, what your experiences have been being involved in the pro-life movement, trying to win the public over, win public support, win political support, engaging in the media.
Give us an insight into what that journey has been like.
Yeah, so I certainly wasn't there from the beginning of the March for Life.
I've been maybe three or four times now to the UK march, a few times in other countries.
I'm told that it began very small; I think it began with just a couple of dozen people in Birmingham about 10 years ago, and then, really incredibly, it has expanded to thousands and thousands in London now.
I know other countries do it a bit differently; they do hundreds of marches across the country.
So every country does it a bit differently.
We have a big one in London each year, and it's been incredible to see how that's grown over the years and how many young people are involved.
It's not just some fading generation that's gradually losing momentum and losing ground. If you go to the march, it's absolutely full of young people, and I think it's growing each year.
And so, yeah, that's been hugely encouraging.
And I think it's interesting because what the abortion lobby is trying to do is to say that this is a settled issue, it's a decided issue, and that there's no room for debate.
And they could probably get away with that for many years because there wasn't really much pushback for a good long time.
And now, I think we're at the point where sort of teenage and young people's rebelliousness is actually getting, you know, the new conservatism is actually being pro-life.
That's the thing; we've had in this country for 50 or 60 years, and people who want to sort of grow up questioning things and going against the establishment are increasingly recognizing that the establishment and the older generations are pro-abortion and that they're trying to maintain that at all costs.
And so, I think there is an increasing generation of young people that are beginning to ask questions.
And naturally, the establishment's getting very nervous about that and trying to shut it down and pretend there's nothing to debate.
And so, yeah, I'm excited about what the next few years might show.
There's some polling, and I don't know, it's a little bit mixed, but there is some evidence that the youngest people in the UK are the most pro-life.
That's not to say the majority are pro-life; it's still tough being a pro-life person at university.
But it does seem to be that the youngest generation is more pro-life than any other, and so our hope is that this will build over the next few years, and hopefully, we'll be able to have even more significant conversations about what is really good for women, what is really good for children, what is really good for society, especially as we see the costs of not having any kids—the economic costs and other things. We're gradually seeing that that's going to cause huge economic problems.
I don't know if anyone in my generation is actually convinced they're going to get a pension when they're in their 60s or 70s. I'm certainly not.
And that's because we don't have enough kids.
And so, I think as those problems increase and get worse, and the economic reality of that hits home, I think a lot of people will be wondering, did we make some mistakes when it came to suppressing childbearing, breaking up families, and encouraging people not to have them?
I mean, isn't it, and I was really pleasantly surprised by the number of certainly younger people at not only the event at the beginning of the day but also in the march.
And you realize there is hope when you see that, a different generation actually standing up for life.
But I mean, in every generation, faces its own issues, and in this generation, it's an issue of it's about me; it's about putting off having children later in life, putting off commitment, actually zero commitment; kind of do what you want.
And that different, I guess, focus on life is more on the individual as opposed to collective, much less responsibility towards society, and much more on "I can do what I want, and screw the world" type of thing.
That is a difficult concept to bring into this, which is about thinking of others, so how do you kind of marry that with this maybe a more selfish attitude to this issue, which has to be selfless because you're thinking of someone else.
It's tough.
And, you know, there are arguments that abortion is bad, even if you're self-interested.
You know, the mental health evidence is quite clear that if a woman has an abortion, she's more likely to be anxious, more likely to be suicidal, and more likely to do drugs and alcohol and all sorts of things.
So even from a selfish perspective, abortion is bad for women and for people making that decision.
On the other hand, you know, those arguments haven't persuaded so far. Maybe that's because the establishment sort of denies that evidence, or maybe it's because people just aren't motivated in that moment by theoretical knowledge of what their mental health might be like in the future.
It's more of a panic decision. It's more of a, you know, freaking out.
"My life's going to be over as I know it," and I just have to get rid of this and change this situation.
I'm not thinking about, you know, potential mental health outcomes 20 years down the line.
I don't know which of those is the reason that those arguments haven't persuaded. But for that reason, it's always going to be a challenge in a culture that is primarily about the individual and about doing what you desire and what you want, forgetting about your responsibility to others and the need to care for others.
I think it will always be challenging to get rid of abortion in that context. So we don't really know how to solve it in that sense.
We're hoping that people will wake up. Of course, there is a significant sentiment of helping others; you know, some people call it social justice, while others refer to it by different names.
However, this sense of societal responsibility among young people isn't completely dead.
They can be very selfish in some respects, and then the next week they’ll spend all of their time at a protest for something that helps society—or at least something they think helps society—in some way. Some of that, I'm sure, is grandstanding; some of it is virtue signaling. However, I think a lot of it is genuine sympathy.
I believe that when people spend their Saturdays marching for Palestine, whatever you think of that issue or whoever you think is in the right, many of the young people in those marches genuinely believe that there are people suffering and that it is their responsibility to spend some of their valuable time speaking for them.
And so, in that sense, the sort of societal duty and that sense of duty is not gone; it’s just very selectively targeted nowadays.
There's not a general sense that with everyone around me, with my family, with my neighbors, and with my society, every decision I make has to be something that contributes to them and their flourishing.
It's more like, okay, in most areas it's all about me, and I should do what makes me happy and follow my heart.
But then there are some things that are just so bad that I have to, you know, give a bit of my time to.
I think it's just much more targeted in that way rather than a complete sense of, you know, irresponsibility.
So the question is, how can we challenge the sort of channel those remaining desires to do good and to show that they apply to all of society and all of life, and not just to a few select issues?
I think once we are able to build that sort of virtue and responsibility in a more global sense, then we might be in a better position to fix this issue as well.
How do you look at this from a campaigning point of view?
There are many angles you could take, and where you focus is important.
Do you look at the media and push the message through that?
Do you focus on MPs in the political sphere?
Do you look at the church and engage with it?
There are many aspects you could consider using for influence.
So how do you see the movement, the breakthrough, or the focus for you personally?
Yeah, I think it's always going to be a mix of those.
I think any societal movement requires getting all the different sectors on board.
Even if you look at, you know, people pushing the other way, even when it seems hopeless—in many parts of sub-Saharan Africa, where almost everyone is pro-life, the abortion industry globally will still target politicians, doctors, the media, and even church leaders.
Even though they know that almost all the church leaders are against them, they will try to get church leaders on board with them just so they can say this is not an issue where, if you're Christian, you're pro-life, or if you're Muslim, you're pro-life.
You can be a Christian or a Muslim and still support abortion, and therefore try to shift the population that way.
So, I’d say it involves all of them.
But I think the thing that has struck me about public opinion on abortion and how pro-life movements have succeeded around the world is that it is very, very difficult for a pro-life movement to succeed without having, at the very least, a core base of enthusiastic supporters among Christians or Muslims.
I think that's just the reality.
You know, if you look at the U.S. pro-life movement, yes, 25 percent of atheists in America are pro-life, according to polls.
And that's significant; that's a lot of people who are totally non-religious and pro-life. But when you look at people who are actively engaged in pro-life campaigning or volunteering at a pregnancy help center, or whatever it might be, the overwhelming majority of them—about 99 percent—are Christian.
There are some exceptions; obviously, that's why it's only 99 percent. I have some great atheist friends. F
or example, Monica Snyder, who runs Secular Pro-Life, does a fantastic job. Everyone's convinced she's secretly a Christian, and I can tell you from knowing her that it's far from the case.
There are great people like that, but the reality is that 99 percent of pro-life people who are actually doing something in the U.S. are Christians. Therefore, it's very difficult to even make a start unless you have a core group of Christians who are willing to take action.
And so, you know, we can still affect the politics.
At the moment in the UK, they're trying to legalize abortion up until birth.
Even without the church being engaged, some of our groups working in politics have been able to stop that.
And so I'm not saying we should just forget everything until we have the church on board, because we can do a lot even without them.
But I think in order to make really significant change long term, I think the place to start has to be the church because that's where people are going to get involved and get motivated and actually do something
All right, I’m always curious about the different aspects of the transatlantic issue and how they engage with it in the U.S. versus the UK. I’ve been confused by being accused by different CV vicars of being “one of them”—one of those Americans who spread hate against the women who are coming in.
I know I’d just like to offer a different solution or even pray.
In the UK, we’ve got a horrendous situation where silent prayer is now illegal in many areas, including a place that was likely the first to institute this ban, which I could walk to in about 30 minutes.
Sadly, my MP has been one of the most vocal advocates for criminalizing anyone who may dare to pray around an abortion clinic.
How in the UK have we reached the point where praying to God in certain areas is illegal?
Silent prayer is remarkable.
I should say that if a CV vicar is saying it, then it's probably not true; you're probably doing a decent job.
I think this is an area that fascinates me because I hear a lot of Christians in the UK saying, “Look at these Americans; they don’t actually do anything to help women,” or whatever.
However, if you look at the numbers in the American pro-life movement, the overwhelming majority of it consists of practical pregnancy centers supporting women.
It's probably about 90% of the pro-life resources in the U.S. There are 3,000 of those centers, and on average, they have about 28 volunteers and five full-time paid staff.
Of course, all of those salaries are coming almost entirely from charity and private giving.
And so, you look at the American pro-life movement and what the American church is doing, and it’s overwhelmingly supporting women practically.
Then you ask those same Christians in the UK who are criticizing the Americans for being hateful and political what they are doing for women in crisis pregnancies.
The answer is almost always absolutely nothing.
It’s astonishing; I guess it’s just a false narrative that the media has spread about American pro-lifers.
Sadly, even many Christians in the UK have adopted this narrative without becoming educated about the facts or getting to know anyone in America who is involved in this.
I think part of our job is to educate people about, firstly, what the American pro-life movement is like, and secondly, how churches can get engaged here to do something similar.
We need to show that we’re not crazy, fanatical hate preachers; we actually just want to protect women and children.
That’s all it’s about.
So, yeah, we’re obviously in a very difficult position in the UK with these censorship zones.
I’m told that the guidance is just being released, indicating that it might not actually be illegal to pray silently.
However, that doesn’t sound like much of a consolation; it’s still not necessarily permissible to pray silently.
I’m sure this change is due to some of the great campaigning work that has been done on this issue by many organizations.
And so, you know, there’s still room for fighting on this issue. We don’t know where the boundaries of the law are.
It’s obviously a complete farce; there are so many basic civil liberties being violated here—not just freedom of religion but also freedom of conscience, freedom of thought in some cases, freedom of speech in some cases, and freedom of assembly.
What’s crazy is that when you look at the way this law was introduced with the bill about protests in general, all of the far-left and progressive groups said, “This bill is absolutely draconian. It limits all of these civil liberties.
The government is absolutely authoritarian,” and so on.
Yet, the form of protest or assembly that was most limited was outside of abortion clinics, and they actually supported it.
So it was just a case of not only hypocrisy but also, in reacting to the whole bill that way, they were conceding that yes, this is absolutely draconian, crazy, and a gross violation of civil liberties.
The government even admitted this. They said, “We think that this section of the bill does violate the Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act.”
It wasn’t put there by the government; it was added by a Labour amendment that received enough votes.
They acknowledged that this violates human rights, but they still supported the bill as a whole.
So everyone agreed that some part of this bill violated human rights.
The government said that the abortion part violated human rights, and the left said that the whole bill violated human rights.
There should have been an overwhelming consensus that this particularly draconian part of the bill was absolutely crazy and authoritarian.
But sadly, that’s the part that has somehow managed to gain the most support because, ultimately, it’s not liberal democracy that most of these people care about; it’s preserving their own civil liberties rather than everyone’s.
That’s, unfortunately, how we’ve got here, because we’ve lost.
We’ve lost the ability to understand politics in a genuinely liberal sense.
It’s only about putting forward your own point of view and protecting your own liberties or the liberties of certain special interest groups.
There are very few people nowadays who understand the need for civil liberties and why they have to apply to everyone, even if you don’t agree with them.
I think it’s really just a failure in civics and a failure in education about what liberalism actually is that has led us to this point.
Oh yeah, and part of this slide is the move towards assisted suicide, which is very much part of the conversation in the UK.
You’ve got abortion, which has been legal since the 1967 Act, and now they’re looking at end-of-life issues.
There seems to be a full-on attack on life, suggesting that if you’re young, you don’t have value, and if you’re old, you don’t have value either.
They talk about putting protections in place, but we’ve seen in Belgium that if you’re a teenager and you feel a bit down one day, the question becomes, “Would you like to end your life?”
Canada has similar proposals, and whatever safeguards our politicians seem to discuss, they won’t be effective once the bill is in place; loopholes will inevitably be found.
We seem to be in a massive push in the UK towards ending life, as evidenced by the assisted suicide bill currently being debated and pushed through Parliament.
I think so.
Yeah, maybe 30 years ago, when the Netherlands was one of the only countries that allowed assisted suicide, you could have argued that the Netherlands has done it badly and has experienced a slippery slope.
But we can do it better; we can implement real safeguards and have a much stricter law that is better regulated.
When I hear people say that now, after seeing the Netherlands, Canada, Belgium, Oregon, and all these other places, honestly, all I can do is laugh.
I don’t think anyone at this point seriously believes in their heart that you can implement significant safeguards for euthanasia and prevent the slippery slope.
If you do believe that, you’re completely delusional and know absolutely nothing about how this has gone every single time in other countries.
Thirty years ago, you could get away with that sort of naivety, but if you have that same naivety today, you shouldn’t be in politics; you shouldn’t be speaking about politics.
So, yes, I think it’s clearly very, very dangerous.
I’ve been a little bit encouraged—I’m rarely encouraged by politics in the UK—but in this case, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the genuine debate happening in Parliament.
It’s not just a matter of one special interest group getting their way; it’s not just about Labour or Conservatives following their lobbyists.
We’ve seen significant figures in the Labour government, who would typically support legalizing euthanasia, actually opposing it.
We have a Labour health secretary and a Labour justice secretary who have both come out in opposition to it, apparently to the great concern of the Prime Minister.
And that's been hugely encouraging—that these very far-left progressive politicians, whom everyone would expect to support euthanasia, have not only stayed silent or abstained but have actually come out vocally in opposition to it.
Of course, this means that there's a real chance of us succeeding.
If we can succeed with a Labour supermajority, and even in that situation protect life, I think that will set a significant and important precedent for hopefully many years to come.
We would have convinced enough of society that this is genuinely a very bad idea, regardless of ideology.
Hopefully, this can make us more resilient to the continual attempts every couple of years to reinvigorate the issue.
No, Absolutely can I one last point to squeeze in just to find and end with the the industry kind of looking into a planned parenthood see in the u.s seems to be a well-funded organization and it seems to be not only ideology, but actually making money through the murder of children.
In the UK, I mean, BPAS and it's part of the NHS, it's not private and therefore it doesn't seem to have the same ability to make money.
So it seems to be more ideological.
Maybe we can end on that note, as there are very different pushes toward abortion.
For me, it seems as though, in the US, it is a money-making scheme, while in the UK, it doesn’t seem to have that same incentive. Is that a fair assessment?
I think it certainly can make huge amounts of money anywhere, and that seems to be the trend.
I mean, globally, there are tens of millions of abortions a year, so that creates a huge market for, in many cases, an expensive medical procedure.
There’s a significant amount of money that can be made from this.
Of course, it's tied to other money-making industries, which are often even bigger, like contraception, as well as promoting that to teenage girls.
I’d say it’s all part of one industry—the global sex industry—which is connected with pornography, prostitution, contraception, sexually transmitted diseases, and abortion.
All of these elements go together, and because sex is a big part of life, most people, at some point, have sex; many people have a lot of sex.
Therefore, there’s a significant amount of money to be made from it.
Inevitably, even if some activists aren’t doing it for financial reasons, I think it’s likely that this will be hijacked by those who are.
Industries and corporations have strong financial interests in being involved in it in some way.
Absolutely, it's a significant factor in the UK and the US. One of the most significant developments is the move from surgical abortion, which requires seeing doctors in person and having the procedure performed by trained professionals.
Now, what they’re doing is essentially having you call the abortion clinic, where you don’t even have to speak to a doctor.
You answer a few set questions, and I imagine they will probably start using AI for this before too long.
Then you receive the pills, and that’s it.
This process is far cheaper, and in the end, you don’t even need to have a physical building.
And I don't know if they're still being paid the same amount per abortion, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I'm sure they're still being paid a lot per abortion.
The cost is much, much cheaper as a result. What we see above all in the abortion industry is a desire to cut costs.
We can see that not necessarily by what they say, but by what they do.
Their actions are clearly intended to cut costs dramatically.
I’d be very surprised if they were just as happy to see their income cut just as dramatically.
So, while I don't think money motivates everyone pushing for abortion, that’s not the point.
We’re not claiming that everyone who supports it is just interested in financial gain; we’re saying that once it becomes normalized, legalized, and a big part of society, it will be hijacked by groups who do want to make a lot of money from it—groups like MSI (Marie Stopes International), groups like Bypass, and others.
They are making a lot of money.
You can see how much their CEOs get paid; for example, I think Marie Stopes’ CEO gets paid £200,000 a year, with a £200,000 bonus.
I believe he is one of the highest-paid charity CEOs in the UK.
So, while it’s not about money for everyone, there is a lot of money involved, and it is about money for a lot of very powerful people.
Calum Miller, I appreciate your time today on this huge topic, which is not a contentious topic at all; it's simply a matter of common sense regarding life and standing up for the voiceless.
I have great respect for what you do in championing the case of the unborn and speaking up for them when, often, we find that many in the media and the political realm don’t.
Thank you for joining us and giving us an update on the situation in the UK and your work. Thank you, Calum.
Thank you, and yeah, just thanks to your listeners.
I would say: get involved! Don’t just sit there being pro-life; go to the March for Life, which is such an easy thing to attend.
It’s usually every September, so it’s a while until the next one, but put it in your diary and plan to go to that in London.
Maybe get involved with some of the other pro-life groups; there are many around, and I’m sure you can find them easily on Facebook or Google or whatever.
So don’t just be pro-life, but find some way to get involved and support this cause, and you won’t regret it.
And if you follow Calum on X (formerly Twitter), you’ll know when the next one is and any other events. We will certainly promote the next one next year. So, Calum, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you.
Take care.

The Week According To. . .Karli Bonne'

Welcome back to Hearts of Oak, where the heartbeat of American politics resonates loud and clear! In this electrifying episode, we're thrilled to welcome back the spirited Karli Bonne who's not just bringing her trademark wit but also a Halloween costume that doubles as a scathing political commentary.
Join us as we dive headfirst into the tumultuous waters of the 2024 presidential election, exploring everything from the grassroots movements stirred by Donald Trump to the unexpected resilience of figures like Steve Bannon.
Karli, with her unique perspective, will guide us through the maze of election mechanics, sharing firsthand accounts of voting irregularities, and the urgent mobilization efforts for Trump. But it's not all serious business; we'll also explore how meme culture is reshaping political discourse, making waves in the digital realm like never before. Get ready for a conversation that's as informative as it is inspiring, where we'll tackle the big questions: Can grassroots efforts and the power of social media memes sway an election? How does the current administration's narrative stack up against the reality on the ground? And most importantly, what does the future hold for America in this pivotal election year? Tune in for an episode packed with insights, laughter, and a call to action that might just make you want to hit the polls or start crafting your own political memes. "Hearts of Oak" – where every episode is a step towards understanding the heartbeat of America.
Don't miss out!
 
Interview recorded 2.11.24
Follow Karli on these links... 𝕏                          x.com/KarluskaPTELEGRAM          t.me/realKarliBonne (Midnight Rider Channel)TRUTH                 truthsocial.com/@KarliBonneGETTR                  gettr.com/user/karlibonne
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUKWEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.Follow him on 𝕏 x.com/TheBoschFawstin and check out his art https://www.boschfawstin.com/
The Week According to …. Karli Bonne
Simpsons voting machine malfunction - VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852503346961064105
Bannon is back!  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852501024642080888
Jason Miller discussing the GarbGE TRUCK  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851777217707008270
TOGETHER—WE WILL FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT—and we will WIN, WIN, WIN! - VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852495524730925158
Trump rally in Warren Michigan  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852469179942588533
Gutfield  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852463137456570872
More Bannon  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852388006155399194
Charles V Payne @cvpayneJobs Report is a disaster and its disingenuous to assume "experts" that contributed to consensus didn't factor into their estimates hurricanes and strikes.https://x.com/cvpayne/status/1852337040865501250
Karli Bonne’ 🇺🇸  @KarluskaP  -  VIDEOShe speaks in Gypsy Curses 😂https://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852320624602910722
God sent me Donald Trump - RFK Jr  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852186982291558608
Joe Biden biting babies  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852100736865501462
Reactions to Trump in New York  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851992217411326130
Democrats book of Joy  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851981600558313519
Trump Campaign Adhttps://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1851843956557967611
Do you need this:
Welcome back to Hearts of Oak, where the heartbeat of American politics resonates loud and clear!
In this electrifying episode, we're thrilled to welcome back the spirited CarinBonne' who's not just bringing her trademark wit but also a Halloween costume that doubles as a scathing political commentary.
Join us as we dive headfirst into the tumultuous waters of the 2024 presidential election, exploring everything from the grassroots movements stirred by Donald Trump to the unexpected resilience of figures like Steve Bannon.
Karli, with her unique perspective, will guide us through the maze of election mechanics, sharing firsthand accounts of voting irregularities, and the urgent mobilization efforts for Trump. But it's not all serious business; we'll also explore how meme culture is reshaping political discourse, making waves in the digital realm like never before. Get ready for a conversation that's as informative as it is inspiring, where we'll tackle the big questions: Can grassroots efforts and the power of social media memes sway an election? How does the current administration's narrative stack up against the reality on the ground? And most importantly, what does the future hold for America in this pivotal election year? 
Tune in for an episode packed with insights, laughter, and a call to action that might just make you want to hit the polls or start crafting your own political memes. 
Don't miss out!
Interview recorded 2.11.24
Follow Karli on these links... 𝕏                          x.com/KarluskaPTELEGRAM          t.me/realKarliBonne (Midnight Rider Channel)TRUTH                 truthsocial.com/@KarliBonneGETTR                  gettr.com/user/karlibonne
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUKWEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.Follow him on 𝕏 x.com/TheBoschFawstin and check out his art https://www.boschfawstin.com/
The Week According to …. Karli Bonne
Simpsons voting machine malfunction - VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852503346961064105
Bannon is back!  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852501024642080888
Jason Miller discussing the GarbGE TRUCK  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851777217707008270
TOGETHER—WE WILL FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT—and we will WIN, WIN, WIN! - VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852495524730925158
Trump rally in Warren Michigan  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852469179942588533
Gutfield  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852463137456570872
More Bannon  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852388006155399194
Charles V Payne @cvpayneJobs Report is a disaster and its disingenuous to assume "experts" that contributed to consensus didn't factor into their estimates hurricanes and strikes.https://x.com/cvpayne/status/1852337040865501250
Karli Bonne’ 🇺🇸  @KarluskaP  -  VIDEOShe speaks in Gypsy Curses 😂https://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852320624602910722
God sent me Donald Trump - RFK Jr  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852186982291558608
Joe Biden biting babies  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1852100736865501462
Reactions to Trump in New York  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851992217411326130
Democrats book of Joy  -  VIDEOhttps://x.com/KarluskaP/status/1851981600558313519
Trump Campaign Adhttps://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1851843956557967611

Abi Roberts: We the People. Personal stories of tragedy and suffering from Covid jabs

Join us on Hearts of Oak for a powerful conversation with comedian and advocate Abi Roberts as we dive into her latest work, We The People: Letters from Dystopia.
In this interview, Abi reveals the heart-wrenching stories behind her book—a collection of real-life testimonies from individuals affected by the COVID-19 lockdowns and mandates.
More than just stories, these letters shine a light on the lasting impact of government overreach, personal loss, and the fight for freedom. Abi shares her journey of gathering these voices through her podcast Abby Daily, emphasizing the importance of truth and remembrance, especially in a time clouded by misinformation. With the evocative illustrations by Bob Moran, We The People stands as both a historical document and a beacon of hope.
Tune in for a deeply moving and thought-provoking discussion that balances the weight of serious topics with Abi’s sharp wit, underscoring her mission to give voice to those who suffered and to remind us all of the importance of freedom. Don’t miss this interview—watch it now on Hearts of Oak.
Interview recorded 30.10.24
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
Connect with Abi Roberts:
X |https://x.com/abircomedianInstagram |https://www.instagram.com/abirobertscomedy/Website: https://abiroberts.com/
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUKWEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/Transcript:
(Hearts of Oak)
Hello, Hearts of Oak!
Thank you so much for joining us.
We have a returning guest who hasn't been with us for a while, and we've missed each other—it's Abi Roberts.
Abi, thank you so much for giving us your time today.
Hi, Peter! Thanks for giving me the time—it's good to see you amid all this craziness we're living through.
I'm in my kitchen, and you're in a place that looks much more professional than mine—you can even see my microwave.
I had to move my oven gloves a minute ago and so you know what.
Mine just looks professional.
Abi's all about it's all about how it looks isn’t it.
All about appearances exactly and let's not talk about the big American studios exactly as we were talking about earlier yeah but I mean, you know, I think it's content isn't it, and you know size isn't isn't everything sorry Americans it is.
But it's content and it's engagement and it's actually being honest, yeah.
I think sometimes people worry way too much about things like lighting or other details.
As long as people can hear and see you, does it really matter?
I watch different things, and, weirdly, the more 'slick' they are—with all the 'hey guys' razzle-dazzle—the less interested I am.
I know that sounds a bit counterintuitive, but I really appreciate the grassroots approach. Stuff is where it is that’s for me personally.
100% agree.
Before we dive into discussing the book, Abi has been involved in, let me just mention that you can follow Abi on Twitter at @Abircomedian.
She’s a comedian—or at least just about one!
We might touch on that, but today's topic is far from comedy.
It's about the tragic reality we’re all facing, no matter where we live—in the States, the UK, or Europe.
We've all experienced the same tyranny, and today we’re here to discuss We the People: Letters from Dystopia, illustrated by Bob Moran and compiled by Abi herself.
Now, before people switch off if they get bored of us after two minutes, could you tell them where they can find this book?
After that, we'll dive into the background and the journey of bringing this project to life.
]Bless you, Peter.
You can get it from lulu.com.
Lulu as in, you make me want to shout that lulu.com.
Just type in Abi Roberts.
And actually it comes up pretty quickly with the people.
Designed by Martin Baker, you can find the book on Lulu.com.
Importantly, it's also available for free on Amazon Kindle and Apple Books.
I’ve mentioned this in a few places, but it’s worth repeating—the book is printed at cost, so I don’t make anything from it.
It’s not like I set out to profit from a collection of people's letters about the harrowing lockdowns and the issues surrounding the vaccines.
The harming and killing people.
And I'm going to make some money.
It's not that.
This is people wrote to me when I started my podcast, Abi Daily, which is on Substack, Apple and Spotify.
In, I think it was March, April 2022, that kind of time.
I asked people to write to me about their experiences during the lockdowns—the dreadful, barbaric restrictions and the tyrannies.
You know, like being told you can’t visit a dying relative in the hospital or that you must get vaccinated whether you want to or not.
No one even questioned what was in them—you were just expected to roll up your sleeve.
So this book is a collection of testimonies, a record not only for the UK but for everyone, especially for doctors, politicians, teachers, unions, and the media, to truly understand what happened over the past four years—and, unbelievably, continues to happen.
The vaccines, for instance, and the return of mandates—it's all fear-based.
I was just thinking about this the other day, Peter.
People are shocked because we’ve seen this kind of tyranny before in places like Soviet Russia.
In Germany in the 1930s, in Mao’s China, and under regimes like Pol Pot’s, we saw similar patterns. We looked at those histories and thought, 'That won’t happen here.
It won’t happen to us.'
But history has echoes, and it’s crucial to pay attention.
As you mentioned, this book includes powerful illustrations by Bob Moran—let me show you so you can get a sense of it.
The book looks like this, with all the letters beautifully illustrated.
Can you see that clearly?
That’s one of Bob’s cartoons alongside the letters.
It’s really beautifully done, thanks to my friend Martin, who designed it.
The book contains about 37 deeply moving stories—harrowing accounts.
Thank you, Peter! Actually, that particular cartoon is one of my favorites of Bob’s, because it touches on the theme of worshipping fear, doesn’t it?
It’s about not believing in God, Christ, justice, or light; it’s about worshipping darkness and evil.
The book includes 37 letters and cartoons—letters written to me on all sorts of topics.
I read one aloud during a show in Ledbury.
A woman named Hanni, a podcast listener who had come to the show, had written it.
And honestly, Peter, you could hear a pin drop.
I’d done some funny material beforehand, but then we shifted to the serious topics you mentioned—things that are not funny in the slightest.
People need to pay attention and understand the reality of what’s happened.
Will people face prison? Will we see justice?
No, likely not. Instead, the wrong people—those who are simply angry—will be the ones punished. But we’ll get into all that, I’m sure.
We will, because I know Abbey could just interview herself.
I've got to know he
I could try and put on your accent, like insult, like all the Northern Irish.
I’d fail at accents—I’m so jealous of people who can do them well.
Very jealous!
But there’s so much to unpack here, from Bob Moran’s genius to the letters included in the book.
And that back cover—it really struck me; we’ll definitely come back to that.
But let me ask, because some people might say, 'Abi, we just need to move on.
This is in the past.
There's so much happening today, and we have a future to build.
The pandemic was a blip, and everyone did their best with the information they had.
Why spend time rehashing the past?'
I hear this argument often, especially from people who aren’t fully aware.
How would you respond to that?
Well, my response would be that all the information was already available to the powers that be, to the government, and to Big Pharma.
They already knew that what was going to happen would destroy people's lives: the barbarity, the lockdowns.
They also knew that they were experimenting with these vaccines.
And so, you know, it’s interesting to say, well, obviously some of us woke up maybe earlier than others.
I was a little bit slow in 2020, which I’ve admitted to.
It’s amazing, actually, that I get more flack than people like politicians who quite happily went all the way through for two years and pushed the vaccines, the so-called vaccines.
But you know, that’s just who I am.
As you know, I’m honest; I wear my heart on my sleeve.
But getting back to it, I think it’s because people don’t understand the crimes that have been committed.
People were told, 'You can’t go out,' or 'You can’t go to a hospital to see your loved one.'
We lost our morals and ethics during the last couple of years.
It’s because people just don’t understand how important they are.
For instance, with the vaccine rollout in particular, there are three stages of crime.
I think I tweeted about it yesterday.
The crimes are in three parts: coercion without informed consent, or even, in many cases, actual consent. They put sedatives in people with Down syndrome.
There’s a man called Adam— not his real name— and they put sedatives in his orange juice
Even though he didn’t want the vaccine, they gave it to him. So there’s a case going on at the moment. His poor mother is having to fight the Court of Protection.
Irony, that term is. So that’s the first part: coercion.
The second part concerns what’s in the vaccines. If I were a lawyer, that would be my argument.
The third part of the crime is the cover-up—the enormous global cover-up. People need to start getting their moral and ethical heads on straight—not just focusing on the information, the data, and the statistics.
What’s happening is honest; it’s the likes of which we will probably never see again. The crimes that have been committed stem from the fact that people don’t read history books, Peter.
They’re too busy saying that nothing’s real, everything’s fake. Much of history has been positioned, shall we say, to favor one side, like the causes of the start of the First and Second World Wars.
I agree with that perspective, but history does show us truths; it exists for a reason.
The testimonies in this book, We the People, will serve as a warning.
I’m speaking to my lovely nephew tomorrow about cancel culture and my arrest, and about the importance of having a moral structure—a backbone.
I think any Christians watching this will understand that importance.
Sort of thinking, is this good?
Would Christ be?
I mean, Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said—and I quote—'to love one another, as Jesus said, get vaccinated, get boosted.'
I’m not a biblical scholar, Peter, but I’m fairly sure that Jesus did not go around suggesting that his followers—the good people who were following him, watching him, listening to him—should take experimental things. It’s just, it’s kind of obscene.
And I think that’s…
hope, and I have to thank everybody, by the way, who wrote to me with these letters.
Because, Peter, some of them—as you know, you’ve read some of them—are so powerful.
It’s important to write down the truth.
I’m still getting emails, Peter.
I’m still receiving emails from people who have been harmed by AstraZeneca, which, of course, the media is using to downplay the situation. I know what they’re going to do; they’re positioning it to say, 'Well, just don’t worry about it; it’s AstraZeneca.'
By the way, that vaccine was taken off the shelves secretly, so nobody knew it was being rolled out.
I’ve had heart-wrenching emails just the other day.
After I tweeted, I received a message from a man who got a blood clot that then turned into avascular necrosis, which is, for those watching, an awful condition.
If you Google it, you'll see it’s a blood clot that actually destroys your bone.
He’s had to undergo double hip replacements because he can’t walk.
So, the other thing I want to say to viewers and your listeners, Peter, is: don’t be ashamed.
Don’t be ashamed that the absolute relentless, military-grade propaganda got to you. People have lives to live.
They have families, jobs, and all sorts of things to worry about—money, etc.
Some say, 'No one was forced because no one actually held people down.'
Oh my God, is that the level we’re talking about?
People were threatened and bullied.
I’m very much of the view that I will relentlessly criticize the media and celebrities who pushed and advertised the vaccines. And then suddenly, they’ve become ill. I’m afraid I will
I reserve the right in my comedy to do that. But we, the people—the ordinary men and women, and sadly, children—who have been affected by this, I have nothing but love and sympathy for them. That’s who I fight for.
That’s why I do it.
Not for any other reason.
I can’t understand people who would laugh or ridicule.
And Abi, I agree with your point that we all make decisions.
Often, we can regret those decisions, and we can look back and say that was a good decision. The decision to get a jab is one that many people may regret.
I think people, after getting two jabs, thought, 'Well, surely I’ve got the jabs; therefore, I’m protected.' And they’ve begun to see through the BS that the media told us.
Whatever point you woke up, it’s important to wake up. I like the way you’re telling the stories, Abi, because this is not about leaving people behind.
This is about people who have been damaged.
Yes, they may not have heeded the initial warnings, which could have been due to their friendship circle, or because they don’t watch certain things—whatever it was.
Yes, yes.
And the fact that the media didn’t put out any warnings—not a single mainstream platform, not the BBC or any other—didn’t comply with their Ofcom rules.
It’s actually weirdly stated in their Ofcom guidelines.
You know, if you advertise any kind of medical product, there has to be a disclaimer.
In the Ofcom rules, particularly in their health and wealth section, it states you have to present the other side.
But nobody did that.
None of the channels said, 'Actually, we have to draw attention to the fact that when the swine flu vaccine was released in 1976 in America, Gerald Ford stopped it because there were too many deaths.'
And when I say 'too many,' it doesn’t even touch the surface compared to what has happened since the end of 2020 with this.
So there’s a real issue here. And again, back to people who say, 'We’ll move on.'
Would you say that about...?.
Kristallnacht—would you say that about Nazi Germany?
After that, would you say in 1945 or '46, 'Well, let’s move on'?
Would you say it after Stalin’s purges, the Harvest of Sorrow, the deliberate starvation and annihilation of 40 million people in Soviet Russia?
Would they say, 'Well, it’s probably just a blip'?
I mean, people went to bloody gulags for it.
You know, it’s that mentality.
I do understand, by the way, that people are horrified.
I’ve spoken to a lot of them, Peter. When I go out, whether I’m getting a cab or whatever, I get into conversations with ordinary people.
I have no agenda; we’re just chatting about the last four years, and it’s honestly unbelievable—the number of people who know it was wrong, who know it was morally wrong, and who regret having taken the vaccines.
I didn’t have any of the vaccines, and my view is not, 'Ho-ho, aren’t I intelligent, aren’t I wonderfully clever and educated?'
My view is, 'There but for the grace of God go I.
And that's what we have to, I mean you don't have to but I would advise that should be people's attitude moving forward and so mixing yeah, I mean I Yeah, the idea that no justice, that nothing will be done is so keenness.
I just can't, you know, I just can't. I mean, maybe I should, you know, we should have a crowd funder and build a museum for all the, you know, and put all the stuff in it. So people can see, or some kind of exhibition.
In fact, that's just come to me, Peter, so we could do that.
Because I just think this is a lesson, this is a warning.
This is a warning.
And these testimonies, and the last four years, by the way, are only a small part of what they're trying to do to us, as you know.
The global, the cabal, the socialists, the third-way socialists, Frankfurt's you know all the things we've spoken about in the past it's part and parcel of we want to control as many people as we possibly can and we're going to stamp out we're going to do this to the individual the divine spirit, the divine flame, we're going to blow it out because we hate humanity because.
This does give a little insight into part of what we are facing.
You mentioned, and we showed the picture of Bob's artwork depicting the jab vial as a cross.
Yes.
And on the back was a quote, which is a Bible verse that has been ringing in my ears for the last two years.
One of the key verses.
And it is this, from John 18:37: 'I was born for this. I came into the world for this, to bear witness to the truth, and all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.'
'T­ruth,' says Pilate, 'What is that?' That line, 'Truth,' says Pilate, 'What is that?' is from when Jesus was arrested before he was crucified at the trial. That was Pilate's line: 'Truth.'
And that question, 'What is truth?' has rung through the ages.
I think that most generations have had some kind of concept and understanding of what truth is.
We now find ourselves in a time where you mentioned Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, supposedly the spiritual leader in the UK—our Pope.
And yet he has capitulated, is silent, and is more worried about plastic bags or environmental issues than about any other biblical truth.
But that concept of truth—because what you've done is show something that is true, which is people's experiences.
This is the truth, and this is what the media are trying to cover up, saying that this is nonsense.
So, I mean, tell me about that idea of truth.
The idea of truth. Well, truth, God, Christ, the divine—these are the things that we’ve lost throughout time, even for people who aren’t particularly religious.
I heard Alain de Botton, you know, the philosopher, say he doesn’t have a particular faith, but he realizes that this is what has been lost: a pillar, something foundational.
Christ is who I speak to every day.
And I’ll go into it—I'm Russian Orthodox, as people may know or may not know; it’s a long and complicated story.
But what’s happening now makes me realize that there was a point to it; there was real meaning in it, even though it was when I was in my 20s—well, in fact, when I was 20, when I got baptized just outside Moscow by a well-known priest, Father Alexander Men.
But that’s another story.
Yes, we’ve lost this idea that there is one truth—something we should have in our lives and that we sort of gravitate around.
I’m looking at a light on my table; it’s a sphere.
I think of it like that: we gravitate around it.
And if we move too far away from it, then things like what has happened over the last four years will occur.
So, we need to navigate our way closer to Christ and God
Abi Roberts
I can only think of it as something that people should aspire to.
Always. And we may know—we look up to it. In fact, we don't look up enough, do we?
We don’t look up enough and say that’s what makes us humble.
That’s the other thing as well, Peter.
I think these letters, these testimonies, these stories from brave, courageous, wonderful human beings, are very important.
It’s not about baubles; it’s not about awards or, you know, chasing fame or fortune.
And that, again, is another thing: having belief in God and the divine makes us realize how tiny we are, actually—tiny little humble beings, like little ants.
But it is important, though, that we do this; it’s channeling something.
And that’s our, whatever our roles are in all this. Without getting too grandiose, I’m wary of the Russell Brand-esque idea of, ‘Well, you know, God spoke to me, and all of a sudden I’m a Christian.’
I think we both know, Peter, that it takes a lot; it’s a lot more than that.
It’s a struggle, isn’t it?
It’s a daily process of having to check in with yourself, looking in the mirror, just being quiet for a few minutes, and getting centered.
Yeah, it’s constant reflection.
To me, Christianity is not about big stages or whatever people may think about the recent converts, shall we say.
It’s very much about this—about we the people and being humble as much as we can in this weird, I mean, look at us now.
It’s like we’ve got a mic, and we’ve got little bits of jazz hands, kind of showbiz stuff. But it’s fine; that’s okay, as long as often enough we take a few quiet minutes for prayer and gratitude.
I agree.
And for me, it’s the same, Abi.
It’s about looking to Jesus. If you want to know what is true, remember that Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life.'
The way, the truth, and the life.
Exactly.
Yes, you just said the exact quote.
He also says, 'I am the light of the world.'
So if you want to find the way forward in this dark world, then for Abi and myself, that would certainly be Christ.
I could talk about that for the next hour or two, but I’ll just leave that thought hanging.
Let’s talk about people writing to you.
I think for many, including myself, I've focused more on the data and statistics.
You and others have personalized this experience and emphasized that it’s not just about numbers; it’s about individuals.
Can you share your thoughts on how people started writing to you?
It must have been traumatic to read these accounts, but how did that evolve into your decision to catalog these stories and publish them?
Yes.
Good.
Very good question.
I started gathering everything together at the end of 2022. Initially, it was in PDF form, which was quite basic. However, thanks to my friend Scott, who helped compile it, we realized that it warranted something more substantial—a book.
Martin and I decided that we needed to set it out properly, featuring Bob's wonderful illustrations.
I always feel that calling them 'cartoons' is slightly demeaning; they are more of an artistic record of everything that has transpired.
In fact, I wanted to share a letter with you, Peter.
I try to read one from different people when I talk to audiences, so I mix it up.
This one is from Paul, and it’s important to remember that much of this is from back in 2022, reflecting on 2020 and 2021.
It’s interesting to read people’s various perspectives.
Here’s what Paul wrote:
'Hi Abi, my 81-year-old mom has undergone a noticeable personality change since her second Pfizer, along with immediate excruciating headaches.'
My father-in-law was advised by his doctor that the AstraZeneca vaccine was safe right after he finished chemotherapy.
This was a provably false statement, as the vaccine had only been tested on healthy individuals under 55, and he was 79.
Within 48 hours, he was hospitalized with lung clots.
His lungs were destroyed within a week, and he died an awful death two months later.
He never once had a positive PCR test while in the hospital, yet his doctor wrote 'COVID' on his death certificate.
It seems they do this to prevent post-mortem investigations.
They are bastards.
Please keep fighting them.
Regards,Paul
And there are so many stories like this in here, Peter.
For example, there’s a wonderful teacher named Maxine who came to my birthday gathering.
I have these gatherings not just for the presents; I invite my listeners who are just ordinary people
So, she came to my birthday this year, and she has been actively standing up for children, telling them the truth—not just about the COVID nonsense but also about all the other cultural weirdness that’s happening in our schools.
As you know, we’ve discussed these issues before.
There’s a lot of content in the book as well, and I want people to be aware that there are warnings throughout.
I’m just going to find an example of that.
Yes, you can phone those people up and they will help you.
Yes, they will.
Exactly.
You can.
It’s interesting because during the process, when I had this in the original PDF, Martin and I realized the extent of the situation.
We started receiving support from organizations like Samaritans, Shout, and Vaccine Ninja Bereaved UK.
Alex Mitchell and Wayne Connington are included in this work as well.
As you know, Alex had his leg amputated due to complications from the vaccines that were coerced onto people.
I find it astonishing that anyone could think we can just move on from this. It’s absolutely absurd.
It reminds me of Dr. Mengele—oh, he was just fiddling around in a lab, right?
It’s easy to say we should just move on, but that’s not acceptable.
The reality is that many people don’t know their history, and I keep coming back to this point.
We seem to be a society that shrugs things off too easily, especially with the constant churn of news.
So, returning to We The People, I encourage everyone to get it.
You can find it on lulu.com, and it’s available for free on Kindle and Apple Books.
I’m not necessarily happy, but I’m very grateful for the support I've received.
Someone mentioned to me yesterday, a listener of Abi Daily, that I shouldn’t forget how many people feel they’ve been saved through my podcast.
When I first started my little podcast, it provided a space for people to connect and share their experiences with each other.
I thought, 'Oh, yes, that’s true!'
This listener emphasized how important it is to acknowledge the connections that have formed, especially for those going through difficult times.
For instance, Trudy, whose story is featured in this book, faced the tragic loss of her son, Benjamin, who took his own life in July 2020.
These little networks are essential for people who are struggling and don’t know where to turn.
My friend Jules reminded me to mention this today and to recognize how many people rely on my podcast for support.
It's so important for personal stories to be told completely.
I’d like to touch on the cartoon aspect, particularly about Bob.
There are a few illustrations that I remember vividly when they first came out.
For instance, I remember this one very well; it really struck a chord with me.
And this one here? This was perhaps one of the most memorable for me.
It it's sort of like what's his name captain Tom.
Yes, Captain Tom!
But let’s talk about Bob and his contributions.
We’re all familiar with his work, but it's worth mentioning that Bob has a unique ability to blend comedy with deep, profound pain.
His illustrations evoke a range of emotions—from smiles to moments where you think, 'Oh wow, that was dark.'
It's fascinating how he captures different feelings through his art.
I've known Bob for a while now, and I think it’s important to highlight how the written text and the drawings come together.
The combination of words and cartoons creates something incredibly powerful and impactful.
Yes, I’m incredibly grateful to Bob for his contributions.
He wrote a beautifully crafted foreword for the book, showcasing his remarkable talent as a writer.
He has this unique ability to channel thought with both clarity and humor, which really brings the narrative to life.
Bob wrote the foreword at the end of 2022, as it was included in the original PDF.
His family—his wife, Sal, and their three kids—are always supportive, although they sometimes mention when I swear too much!
Sal has had to say, 'Let’s tone it down a bit,' especially when there were quite a few colorful words.
I have eased off on the more extreme language, though, just out of respect, as they know me well.
It's all in good fun, of course!
Lovely children.
And where was I?
Oh yeah, so when I was compiling the letters—because they listened to the podcast—they knew I was doing the letters.
I said to Bob, 'Can I have your cartoons?
Can I put them in?' and he was like, 'Yeah, of course, absolutely!'
And the other thing, I'm actually drinking—I don't know if you can see it—I’ve got to show this: you know, for my birthday last year, Bob did a cartoon of me
Yes, I remember I remember that
And then somebody made a mug for my birthday, so it’s got the cartoon and it’s got 'Be seeing you,' which is my catchphrase.
At the end of Abi Daily, I say, 'Be seeing you,' which, of course, is from The Prisoner. It’s funny because I didn’t think about that at the time, but when I did the intro for Abi Daily, it was to the tune of 'Sweet Home Alabama,' you know, 'Sweet Home Alabama, where the skies are so blue.'
And then, at the end, I remember when I was recording it for the first time in 2022, I said, 'Be seeing you.' I thought, 'Oh, that’s interesting.'
It just carried on, you know, the way these things happen; you just sort of do it.
But Bob's contribution to this cannot be underestimated. And, of course, he’s got his own book out showcasing his incredible work from the last four years.
So this is like a little sibling, a little sibling to Bob's book, you know?
It’s a companion piece, isn’t it? It’s all part and parcel of the same narrative. We’re singing from the same hymn sheet
It is.
I know we’ve learned a lot over the last few years, and it hit me that the reason for cartoons, the reason for comedy, and the reason for imagery is to elicit a response.
I remember one of the cartoons he did on Israel.
We may have different views on that, Abi, and we’ve never really discussed it, but I thought, 'Goodness, that goes too far.
How dare he?'
I got quite annoyed. But then I sat back and realized that this is the point of a cartoon: it’s supposed to elicit a response.
If I’ve been upset by something, laughed, or cried, that’s a response, and that is the purpose.
He has done his job, and well done to him
If I dig deep, I feel angry, and I totally get it.
I’ve received flack for doing a thumbs-up on the Netanyahu cartoon.
And don't forget, there were other people in the picture; it wasn’t just him.
There was also Rishi Sunak and someone else—I can’t remember who—so it was a criticism of the abhorrence of war and conflict as well.
But you’re right. You know, I did a Delingpole the other day, and oh my God, that’s causing a real kerfuffle because we actually had a disagreement.
Peter, I thought, isn’t that what friends do?
It’s going to get heated sometimes.
I’ve stayed out of the Israel debate a little bit, not because I don’t care, but because it’s interesting, isn’t it?
People often use the straw man argument, implying that if you don’t speak up, you must be okay with destruction, war, and killing.
No, that’s clearly not what I’m about. It’s actually because I can only deal with one atrocity at a time.
It’s true.
Over the past four years, that’s all I’m strong enough for, along with my writing and my comedy.
But that’s no disrespect to my Jewish friends at all, and I hope I’ve made that clear in my podcast. It’s complex, very complex, but...
It's a whole area we don't need to touch on; it was just that response that really struck me.
Yes, that made you think, really good.
Brilliant.
Yes, it is brilliant because it does make you think about who wins in these situations.
You know, we’re back to the whole war machine and the reasons for war, etc.
And it’s the little people, Peter, who are crushed underfoot, a bit like we the people.
Yeah, well, the world needs the war machine, just as some parts of the world need the pharmaceutical industry and others need the food industry.
Yes, quite.
You realize those lobby groups are hugely powerful—hugely powerful.
Can I mention one thing that actually struck me, which is the back cover, and that is the quote?
You know, I'm so glad, Peter, that you brought that up about the quote because there was a suggestion on...
The back quote caught my eye, and I thought, 'Oh, I like that; that's quite cool.'
I’m glad because when we were considering quotes, there was a suggestion to use something I’d written, like a line from an article or whatever, and I said, 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You cannot get better than this.
It’s like choosing Adele over Aretha Franklin.
That’s my view.
So, in the conversation, should we use a quote from Abi or a quote from God?
In the end, we went with the God quote.
Yeah, that was kind of the conversation.
It wasn't quite... It was, yeah, because, I mean, you can't put it any better than that, can you?
There are no words that are better than that. So thank you for noticing, because I want people to realize the beauty of the design as well.
You know, Martin, by the way, designed this book for Naut.
So, obviously, I compiled it, and he designed it.
I'm actually grateful to him for providing me with a microphone and the nice setup because before it was a bit like, 'Crikey!
Is Abi going to appear like this?
Hello, Peter!
I'm doing all like this!'
So, yeah, I'm really grateful because there wouldn't be this version without him or without Bob.
The other thing that struck me, Abi, was that your name's not on the front, and that is obviously personal.
To say that.
Obviously, you're not wanting to be rich and famous; that's the first thing.
It's always nice to know when you connect with people, because there are some who do want to be in the spotlight.
You put Bob's name on it, but it is about the individuals who are involved.
You obviously say it’s compiled by Abi inside, but that struck me.
You give credit to those who aren’t jumping up and down to get attention for themselves.
Yes, thank you, Peter.
Actually, you're the third person who has said that.
Lovely Dick Delingpole, you know, James' brother, mentioned that I’m not on the front. I mean, weirdly, that wasn't my decision; it just... that's how it happened.
And to be fair to myself, I never once said, 'Oh, hang on a minute.
Where's my name?'
It just seemed...
And where's my picture on the back?
Exactly—underneath the statement by God.
Yes, exactly.
Where's my picture?
Next to the best quote of all time.
Exactly.
In the little kind of, yeah, don’t forget about me there. Yes, thank you.
Because, well, yes, it is about the people inside the book.
So it's not about me, Martin, or, with all due respect, Bob; it’s about the people who wrote in. But thank you for saying that because people have noticed.
Honestly, it didn’t even really occur to me. I was like, 'Oh,' and then people said, 'You're not on the cover.'
Well, I’m in the book, Peter. I’ve got quite a long introduction where I share the backstory of these letters, so I thought, 'That’ll do.'
And then God bless the people. I’ve received messages from individuals who knew they were in the original PDF and are now included in this version as well.
A lady on Twitter said, 'Oh my God, I’m overcome with emotion; I’m just so wowed that my letter’s in here!'
They can give that to their friends or their doctor or whoever they want to share it with and say, 'My testimony is in here, so you better read it.'
In fact, I’ve ordered several copies, Peter, and I’m going to take one to my GP, who has been very helpful to my husband.
My late husband was diagnosed with cancer, and he had a private GP whom I’ve kept in touch with over the last three to four years.
I’ve even gone in and deliberately paid to sit down with him to tell him the truth about what’s happened.
He’s going to be delighted when I say, 'I’ve got a little something for Christmas. Would you like to read it?”
It is a perfect gift.
Yes. Last question: just to prove it, Abi's name is on it.
So just in case you thought we were doing this just for a laugh..,
We picked up someone else's book.
There is the content page with all the names. Just my file thought, it's could have been I've talked to people who've written books and putting in the information and often never having written a book often you have to dispense with a lot of you have more than you need yes and this is a perfect example of that that I'm sure you had so many and it's actually you'd want to just take a spread difference of different stories, but actually the book could have been much bigger because of the response I'm sure you've had
Yes, it could have been a lot bigger, and that's due to the time and, frankly, the emotional toll.
I mean, we did have to take breaks, feeling a bit dizzy from just processing it all, because we can't comprehend some of the cruelty and immorality of it all.
But yes, as I say, this is the tip of the iceberg; this is just a sample.
My podcast is not like a mass market thing, you know what I mean?
It’s not like a Joe Rogan podcast, but in a way, I see that as more important.
It’s just something that I wanted to do; it's my little contribution during this time, Peter.
So it could have been a lot bigger, and I'm sure there will be more.
Actually, strangely, no one else has done it. I was quite surprised.
I thought, surely there’s going to be something where people's experiences come out.
So I was going to suggest that there might be another one of these coming out, but I think, yeah, that’s enough for now.
It is a lot to work through, and it is emotional completely.
Abi, I really appreciate you coming on. We the People, that is from Bastopia, just in case I haven't shown it already.
Do get it from lulu.com; all the links will be in the description, whether you're watching or listening.
And of course, it's at the top of Abi's Twitter/X feed.
Abi Roberts
Yeah. And sorry, Peter, you can get it for free, don’t forget, on Kindle and Apple Books. Also, just a little something as we're chatting: I am back to doing live shows!
I’m going to be up north in the Dales, and I'll put that on Twitter.
Thank you for reminding me about my Abbey or Comedian, my new Twitter handle.
I was mad; I abandoned my Twitter account—crazy! But anyway, you do what you do.
We’re not living in normal times at the moment.
So yeah, look out for my live shows; I’ll be doing more next year.
I’ve got a thing called Abi’s Kitchen Table, which is filmed at my home with some guests around my table. It would be great, Peter, if you want to come on as a guest. We’ll just sit around, eat, and reminisce like in those old shows from the ’90s where people would sit around a table, and it’s all filmed.
So that’s kind of what I’m doing.
We can eat and drink poteen and Vodka together
Yes, yes, indeed, indeed!
In fact, there was vodka at the last episode—or was it the one before?
There have only been two episodes of Abi's Kitchen Table, but I’m sure there will be more vodka coming out soon!
Yes, that’s what I’m doing—that’s what I’m up to at the moment, just trying to be a good human.
Well the viewers and listeners can get the book, follow Abi wherever she is going comedy-wise and obviously follow her on X and Twitter for that.
So, Abi, I appreciate your time.
Thanks so much for coming and sharing the book.
Bless you, Peter.
Thanks ever so much for having me.

Dr James Thorp - The Silent Alarm: One Doctor's Crusade Against the mRNA Onslaught on Maternity

Welcome to another riveting episode of Hearts of Oak, where we delve deep into the stories that shape our world. Today, we're honored to host a distinguished guest, a board-certified obstetrician gynecologist with a background in maternal fetal medicine, whose journey through the medical field has been nothing short of extraordinary.
 
In this episode, our guest shares insights from a career marked by a relentless pursuit of truth, especially in light of the tumultuous events surrounding public health strategies during recent global crises. We'll explore how personal experiences, influenced by historical figures like Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, have shaped his approach to medicine, emphasizing the importance of standing firm against mainstream narratives when patient safety is at stake.
 
Our discussion will take a critical look at how health policies, driven by a complex web of government, pharmaceutical, and medical organizations, have impacted the most vulnerable among us. We'll tackle the uncomfortable truths about medical ethics, the silence of influential societal groups, and the personal sacrifices made by those who speak out against the status quo.
 
This episode promises to be a beacon of awareness, urging us all to question, to learn, and to remember the importance of integrity in the face of systemic challenges. So, join us as we navigate through the ethical dilemmas of our time, inspired by a physician's commitment to never compromise patient care for profit or popularity.
 
Stay with us as we uncover the layers of this compelling story, right here on Hearts of Oak.Connect with Dr James Thorp
Freedom In Truth | Substack
 
Recorded on 17.10.24
 
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
 
Connect with Hearts of Oak...
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Transcript:
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(Hearts of Oak)
And hello, Hearts of Oak.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We have a brand new guest today, and that is Dr. James Thorp.
Dr. Thorp, thank you so much for your time today.
Peter, thank you so much for hosting me on your platform.
Great to have you and you're one of the the names that have popped up to those of us in the non-medical field that we have looked to for wisdom and navigating the last four or five years of the the chaos which we've all faced and people if they're not following you they can obviously find you there is your twitter handle and freedomintruth.substack.com.
Make sure and sign up to that and get the regular updates more or less every other day that Dr. Thorp puts out.
Now, you've got a book coming out.
It is not, I think it's out on the 10th of December, and the links will all be in the description for whether our viewers or listeners can jump on that. But it's Sacrifice, How the Deadliest Vaccine in History Targeted the Most Vulnerable, And that's published, I think, by Children's Health Defense Books, isn't it?
Actually, this is published by Skyhorse.
Oh, Skyhorse.
And yes, I think they do have some affiliation with RFK Jr.'s Children's Health Defense.
And we've had Tony Lyons on before on Skyhorse.
Anything published by Skyhorse is worthwhile getting hold of.
But that is 10th of December. Make sure you can pre-order now and get hold of that.
But Dr. Thorp, you're a board-certified obstetrician gynaecologist with maternal fetal medicine physician, over 45 years of experience.
And you saw 27,000 high-risk pregnancies in four and a half years while serving at one of the largest catholic health care systems in st louis where I was three weeks ago and the best part of your twitter handle is you're a follower of Jesus Christ, so that to me is is the best and immediately I know what your worldview is one of of hope.
And your story I think fits in very much with that of what you saw, but maybe you can give us a little bit of kind of touch your background 45 years in the medical field was medicine what you always wanted to do growing up?
It was, Peter.
You know, my mother was a labor and delivery nurse.
And my father, I come from a long line of military heroes.
My father was a naval officer, served in World War II and served after World War II.
My older brother was delivered in a military hospital.
My mother did not have a good experience, so my mother was a labor and delivery nurse and delivered me at home.
So, you know, I became very focused on obstetrics, and I became very focused on whom I considered a mentor, and that was Dr. Ignaz Philip Semmelweis.
You've probably never heard of him, but he was a mid-19th century.
Of course, he died before I was born, but a mid-century obstetrician in Vienna lying in hospital who actually had the fortunate or unfortunate happenstance of being in a time in Central Europe in one of the major academic hubs where we were losing almost 50% of healthy pregnant women who were dying after delivery.
And it was a puzzle to everybody and it was largely ignored.
But Dr. Semmelweis diagnosed and figured out exactly what the problem was.
And the problem was that the physicians were going from the autopsy room, vivisection, up to labor and delivery and infecting the patients and in essence, killing them.
Now, back then, they didn't have any idea of germ theory.
They didn't have any idea of washing their hands. And they had no idea of doing clinical studies.
So Dr. Semmelweis was actually considered, first of all, the father of the germ theory because he developed it and theorized it and believed that by washing the hands with Lyme water, that disease and death and destruction could be prevented.
He successfully carried out the first clinical study.
So in essence, he's also thought of the father of clinical studies.
So you would think, and he proved that he could decrease that rate of death, which he did. Was he accepted and embraced?
No, he was mocked, rejected, derided, and thrown in an insane asylum.
Some believe he was killed. Others believe he died a very horrible death, a pauper.
And it wasn't until 20 years after his death that he was lauded and praised and confirmed.
I became mesmerized with that story as a young man.
And I thought it was just, I learned a lot of things from his life story.
Little did I know that 50 years later, I would be put in a situation, a horrible situation, in obstetrics that would make Dr. Semmelweis' situation look like a walk in the park.
So because your your your Substack is called Freedom in Truth and your the tagline on that is my dedication to uphold my deepest convictions has no price.
I will never sacrifice the health of my patients for a pay check so when I was called by God to pivot, I did so.
Tell us about what that pivot meant because it's easy to go with the crowd we've seen many individuals have become leaders I think over the last over the COVID tyranny, because they've chosen to speak what they believe is true as opposed to follow the crowd but what was that like for you personally?
Yeah.
For me personally, my mother, I've always been a follower of Jesus Christ.
Of course, it's a very young age, but like most followers, there's been periods in my life where I've taken it less seriously and then more seriously.
I became then the next person that had a huge influence on my life, another gentleman, again, who died before I was born, but I looked to as a hero, as a follower of Jesus Christ.
And his name was Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
And does that name ring a bell to you?
It does.
It does.
So you stood by his beliefs.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer taught me a lot.
And, you know, the third person currently, and all three of these people have converged in my walk in faith with Jesus Christ and in my professional work.
They've converged to a time such as this.
And that person is Eric Metaxas. Eric Metaxas is the author of the probably the greatest treatise on the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
And then he's published two books, many books.
He's an incredible author. I had the opportunity to visit with him and meet him last week.
But he has solidified the Bonhoeffer experience.
Bonhoeffer was a prophet to the American people today, and we are ignoring him. This is Metaxas' theory.
In his book published last year, A Letter to the American Church, and his book published this year, religionless Christianity.
And Metaxas highlights the essence of my existence and the reason why God put me in this situation in the last four years.
And that is that we as physicians, as an American society, and as an American church have failed miserably to heed the warnings of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer begged, he begged the German people to wake up and smell the coffee or they would be a catastrophic destruction of Germany.
In the early 30s, he warned against Hitler, against anti-Semitism, against the evil regime.
And then when Hitler was in, when he was elected into office in 33, he continued that.
And, you know, what Bonhoeffer did, and, you know, this is emblematic of Metaxas, what he's doing now.
Bonhoeffer was a prophet.
And whether Metaxas wants to admit, you know, he's a strong follower of Jesus Christ.
He, too, is a latter-day prophet.
He doesn't proclaim himself as such, but he is.
A prophet is somebody that proclaims a message from God to the fellow, to the world, to the believers, to the alleged believers, to the church.
That's what a prophet is.
And both of these gentlemen were prophets.
So in Bonhoeffer's day, there were 18,000 pastors. Okay, there were 3,000 that were strongly supportive of Hitler.
The majority, 12,000, remained silent. So we had 84% of the pastors that supported Hitler by actively supporting him or remaining silent.
Peter, today it's worse.
Whether you look at the American people or you look at the American church, it's worse. You're looking at 95% of the American people that they think that they would have gone on the side of righteousness, you know, of the horrible, authoritarian, murderous regime of the Hitler.
They like to believe they would, but they wouldn't.
95% of the Americans are remaining silent or more, and 95% of the pastors are corrupted.
They don't, they're fake Christians.
They're false Christians.
They're demonic.
They resemble nothing.
Of what the Bible tells us to believe. If Jesus were here today, he would have railed on 95% of the churches worse than he railed on the religion of his time, the Sadducees and Pharisees, whom he called vipers, whom he called satanic. He called them their father, Satan.
He was very angry.
He was very aggressive and demeaning of the religion of the time.
If Jesus Christ were here and when he comes back, he will be more critical.
So this is where the rubber meets the road, where Eric Metaxas says, you know, are you going to be a true follower of Jesus Christ?
Are you willing to die for truth or are you going to be a fake Christian and promote all of this ideology of transgenderism, which is a social contagion, this ideology of murdering babies, this bail worship?
So are you going to promote the truth of this COVID-19 vaccine and this pandemic, what has been obvious now, or are you going to continue to parrot this state, Stalinistic.
Communistic narrative that is safe, effective, and necessary?
Can I pick up, because Eric Metaxas, we've had him on, and his letter to the American church is a clarion call to the church to wake up and actually be the body of Christ and to do what he did.
So, I've followed Eric Metaxas for many years, so I echo everything you say about Eric.
But you touch on, at the top of your, I think, a Substack, you have Psalm 139, which was that we are knit together and we are fearfully and wonderfully made and and that understanding of being made in the image of God.
And therefore everyone has value the unborn has value from the moment life is conceived someone at the end of life has value and we're fighting against the assisted dying bill which assisted suicide bill in the UK and we've got all those pressures against life.
Is that one of the issues why there was no concern about the effect of a new job to the unborn.
Is it that failure to understand that we are all made in the image of God and then every life has value?
I'm just trying to work out why there was silence, really, of the impact to the unborn of a new medical procedure.
Yeah.
Well, just remember, this is nothing new.
You know, in 2003, after the turn of the century, you know, again, I'm board certified obstetrician, gynaecologist, and I'm board certified maternal field medicine subspecialist.
There aren't many of us around the United States.
I've heard only 1,200 of us now practicing. At the turn of the century, there were only 2,400.
There's 60,000 OBGYNs, but after the turn of the century, you know, God had kind of put me in the right place at the right time after my fellowship at University of Texas, Houston.
And, you know, I had the opportunity to treat the fetus inside the womb as a patient, right?
So I had done many, many, arguably more than most other experts.
Closed fetal surgical procedures, closed fetal surgeries.
So, I wouldn't open the womb up, But through ultrasound guidance, I would do closed fetal surgeries on many fetuses, maybe as many as 2,000.
And at the turn of the century, the Bush administration dared a maternal fetal medicine doctor to step forward and to help them take down the partial birth abortion bill, which is a gruesome procedure for those of you who don't know it.
Basically what they would do is take a baby. It could be the day before the due date.
And they would basically put a massive trocar in the baby's brain, suck the baby's brain out and pull the baby out piecemeal.
It's a gruesome procedure.
So the Bush administration asked me to testify in my experiences treating the fetus as a patient, which I knew would destroy my career, which I was happy to do.
Many declined that because they knew the results.
There's been a cult of baby killing in every dynasty, every social, every kingdom since the beginning of humanity.
Baal worship has, you know, throwing babies in pits of fire, honoring this false satanic gods. This is nothing new. And this is what the United States of America has done.
This is what the Democratic Party stands for. Listen, remember, they've extended killing babies to afterbirth.
Now, you remember a few years ago, they lit up the New York City Bridge when they passed the ability for an obstetrician to decide to kill a baby after birth or kill a baby after an abortion that failed. And they celebrate this.
Whether they know it or not, this is a satanic death cult.
So this is what they focus on, what Jesus said, Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
And that's his mission.
And that's what the globalists are doing.
That's what the Democratic Party are doing.
They are either demonically controlled or indwelt by Satan or unbeknownst, useful idiots of Satan following this death cult.
So in 2003, the Bush administration successfully overturned the partial birth abortion, only to be reinstated by one of the most dangerous presidents who began destroying the United States of America.
And that would be Barry Sartoro, more commonly known as Obama. And Obama's mission, he's also a satanic death cultist of the globalists.
And by the way, he was a Manchurian candidate.
He was installed as a president to achieve the globalist goal to destroy the United States of America.
And, of course, the Clintons and really many others since then have succeeded in his goal.
Tell me about, right and I 100 agree with everything you've said.
That's why this election is so so important and I say that as a Brit that actually is for freedoms worldwide and for the freedoms for Christians to actually live their faith and for the issue on life it's so many, so many parts of our very existence are at stake.
On the 5th of November can I ask you about putting pen to paper for this book, Some might say hey that's kind of all old old news you know move on look forward but there's something essential about a record being put down for people to actually be aware of what's happening because that's the only way we can learn from our mistakes in the society.
But tell me about your thoughts of actually writing this book and why you've spent the time doing that.
It's been a long journey.
It's been four years.
When I went into this pandemic in 2020, as you stated correctly, I was arguably one of the most senior, busiest clinicians, MFMs in the country, if not the world.
I'm 71 years old.
I've been in practice doing this for 45 years at that time. And by the way, I was fired from that job for testifying in the United States Senate and for being on many shows, including Tucker Carlson's many hundreds, if not thousands of platforms.
So, yeah, I think that I saw that in 2020, it was business as usual.
I knew that this was false for many reasons, which I don't know we have time to go into. But after the vaccine rolled out, I just saw death and destruction.
I saw almost 28,000 high-risk obstetrical patients before and during that pandemic.
I had my fingertips on the pulse of obstetrics, like really arguably no other experienced maternal fetal medicine physician in the world.
I saw what was going on with my own eyes. And then I saw the corruption.
I had the opportunity to surround myself with some brilliant researchers on my team, one of whom is Maggie Thorp, JD, a brilliant attorney, just happens to be my wife.
And I said, Maggie, what happened was in the period of a gestation, about 280 days, about nine and a half months is a pregnancy period, from December of 2020 to September 27th, 2021.
The narrative completely went backwards right out of Isaiah 520.
Woe is those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, bitterness for sweet and sweet bitterness.
This transpired in the period of 280 days, a period of a pregnancy, ironically.
And the narrative went from, you know, we're not going to use this in pregnancy.
There's no safety record. Nine months later, September 27th, 2021.
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists colluded with the Department of Health. The United States Department of Health and Human Services.
CDC and FDA, they took massive, massive amounts of money, secretive, unethical, immoral, illegal, hidden from the American people.
Remember, a public or a governmental organization capturing a private NGO that controlled 60,000 OBGYN doctors and that you have this money and we'll continue to give more money.
Okay, but you've got to sign this cooperative agreement, which was a legal contract, binding them to push the Draconian narratives of the CDC, COVID-19 narratives of the CDC and FDA on ACOG and all their 60,000 members. And then in that letter, an email, they sent that out.
They had the audacity to send that out to 60,000 OBGYN doctors, and they colluded with the other medical organizations that have the teeth, okay, to strip away licensures.
That would be the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynaecology.
And then a third foot of that stool was the Society for Maternal Fetal Medicine, my specialty society. Now, these organizations had honored me my entire career.
I was a board examiner in the 90s for the American Board of OBGYN.
I was a board of director for three years for the Society of Maternal Fetal Medicine.
I was given research awards, teaching awards by ACOG.
So this, they became captured organizations. And then in that email, they said, if you dare deviate from the narratives, we will destroy you by taking away your licensures and by taking away your board certifications, which essentially destroys us.
We can't practice without that.
And I said, no, you're wrong. You're dead wrong. This is not going to happen.
I got a hold of George Wendell, the then director, executive director of the American Board of OB-Joints.
That I was a colleague of mine that I examined with in the 90s.
I said, this is fascism.
This is communism. You don't do that.
I'm a former, I'm a disabled military veteran.
I swore an oath to this constitution.
You don't act like that in the United States of America.
This is unprecedented in medicine and in the United States of America, not happening.
I said, shut up or you're losing your license. I said, we'll see.
So I wrote a 98 page letter.
Anybody can get to it.
98 pages published it in January of 2022.
Okay.
This is a 98 page letter that reviewed the government's own data, reviewed some Brits and other experts all over the world showing how it was catastrophic in pregnancy.
And if that weren't enough, if that weren't enough, Peter, I read and studied over a thousand manuscripts, to be exact, 1019 manuscripts published in just 12 months after the release of COVID vaccine, documenting that it caused death and injuries.
And I put the reference in abstract for every single one of those 1019 articles in this letter.
I sent it to ABOG, ACOG, and SMFM.
And I not only did that because I knew they'd ignore it, I published it on multiple platforms.
It's still available today.
Just Google James A. Thorp, open letter to ABOG.
And guess what?
I defeated them.
God defeated them.
They knew that they were wrong.
They broke the golden rule of pregnancy.
They knew I was right.
And crickets, they never touched me.
They never threatened me again because they knew if they did that I would sue them.
And if I sued them.
There's this process called, in the United States of America, in a lawsuit called discovery, right?
And discovery, I would obtain those documents.
But my research team went further.
I charged my research team.
I said, I know they've been captured.
Let's do a Freedom of Information Act and let's prove it.
That we did. Attorney Maggie Thorp, JD, executed a brilliant FOIA, Freedom of Information Act request.
And this was published a year or a couple of years ago, 18 months ago. It was published in, I want to say, May of 2023. Finally, we got it.
1,400 pages between the government, CDC and the American, a private organization.
They redacted half of those pages, but they gave us enough information that we struck gold.
We proved it.
So basically I've been accusing them now for three years of, you know, genocidal killing, you know, killing and injuring the most vulnerable, thus the name of my book.
This is Sacrifice, how the deadliest vaccine in history targeted the most vulnerable.
My patients, my pregnant women, pre-borns and newborns.
It's out there for the world to see.
SSM Health, St. Louis University, who employed me.
I knew I was going to get the axe after I testified in the United States Senate to this data. Multiple other state senates.
Multiple other senates around the world.
And on many platforms, they also had to fire me while acknowledging that I was a model physician for their healthcare system.
CEO Kevin Alledge last summer called me up and said, listen.
We've decided to terminate you for no cost.
It's in your contract.
And this is, you know, you've been a great physician, but we're having financial difficulties.
He lied.
They terminated me because they too signed the cooperative care agreement, which my research team, again, thanks to Maggie Thorp, JD, and others, proved that in, and we published this in early 2021.
The United States Department of Health and Human Services paid over $186 billion, Peter, to over 420,000 hospitals, including SSM Health.
Same deal with the American College of Obstetricians.
You keep this money, but if you deviate from the
Draconian narratives, And if you don't push it in all your employees and your employees push in all the patients.
You pay us back.
So I got too vocal.
I was telling too much truth.
And so they had to be faced with either terminating me or paying back $306.9 million that they took.
Again, an illegal, unethical, immoral, secretive contract that violates the First Amendment.
It violates the First Amendment.
And of course, these are all secretive agreements.
And then they tried to bribe me with almost $100,000 to sign a non-disclosure agreement or a non-disparagement clause, which was the most aggressive non-disparagement clause my legal team had ever seen.
And I said, no, thank you, Mr. Kevin Elledge.
If you're having financial difficulties, you keep that money.
And in my contract, I had another 120 days to work. You know, they could have fired me or I could have fired them, but I would get another 120 days to work and receive pay.
After I refused the bribe, they sent an email to the entire system.
The very same day I was seeing patients Dr thorp is no longer with us.
Okay, tell them because you talk about those 27 000 pregnancies at risk and that you saw met doctors all over the country in the US and the UK.
They would also be seeing abnormalities and really be joining up the dots and you talked about the the power of the the associations that give the licenses to a doctor to practice you also meant touched on a big pharma is it those two or the two levers that basically keep people in place?
It's much more complicated than and extensive than that and in our most recent publications of my research team this summer, part one and part two, and it's published.
But we have gone through what I refer to.
You know, right from Isaiah 28, I think it's verse 15 through 18, Prophet Isaiah 2,600 years ago talked about in the end times the covenant with death.
Now, I don't think this is the ultimate fulfilment of the covenant of death, but I termed this cartel the covenant with death, these cooperative care agreements with a lethal deadly vaccine.
I coined the term covenant of death from Isaiah 28.
This covenant of death is a circle of people, entities, powerful entities that have been in operation for 50 years, but it's really accelerated.
It's the government, specifically HHS, CDC, and FDA that have colluded with multiple, multiple, mainstream, powerful academic universities as one component of the circle of death.
Another one is the medical journals themselves.
Another component is the pharmaceutical industries.
And this is a circle of self-gratification, a circle of control, a circle of using the American people and spreading disinformation, false information, by mainstream medical journals.
And I'll give you just one example that we outlined in our recent publication. And this was perpetrated.
This is a classic example.
You take the two most powerful journals in the world. One is one of your journals, Lancet.
Another one is the New England Journal of Medicine.
We'll take the Lancet, you know, the Lancet In 2020, they were used by a cardiologist, Mandeep Mara, at Harvard University.
And what they do is these entities, the Pfizer and the pharmaceuticals, ghost write these manuscripts, right?
They had to falsely villainize and execute Hydroxychloroquine because it was extraordinarily safe, extraordinarily effective.
And it stood in the way of blocking the emergency use authorization.
So, they had to villainize it and they had to execute it and they had to rewrite history because before that, just years before, I had used hydroxychloroquine for 40 years in pregnancy.
The CDC and FDA were promoting it as very safe and effective in pregnancy, in breastfeeding moms and women.
They deleted that. And then they colluded with a company called Surgisphere.
Surgisphere manufactured false data to falsely villainize, demonize hydroxychloroquine.
And they did it through Harvard University.
They wrote the manuscript.
They, in just five months of the pandemic, the first five months, this is a joke.
This is a sick joke, but it's true.
In five months, they allegedly took 95,000 patients with COVID from all around the world. They synthesized that data.
They performed the study.
They analyzed the data.
They did all the statistics, they wrote the data, the manuscript, and they published it in just five months.
That's impossible.
Anybody with a brain, I've been publishing, you know, I published, you know, well over 250 publications, 270, you know, in my career.
And, you know, that would have taken five years, you know, maybe expedited two years. Okay. You don't do that in two months. It's impossible.
But they did it. And the Lancet published it. And game over.
The media was bought. They put it all over the world.
And hydroxychloroquine, the Trump administration, had procured 62 million doses with Dr. Stephen Hatfield, Dr. Peter Navarro.
And if they had deployed those to the American people, the pandemic would have been over in the United States of America by August of 2020, just eight months later, it would have been over.
They executed it with false data.
Now, when anybody with a brain like myself saw that article, they knew it was fraudulent.
We called for, let us see the data.
They couldn't procure it.
It didn't exist.
So they retracted the article five months later in October, but the damage was done.
And, you know, Mandeep Mara is still in good standing.
You know, these people who executed, these people committed genocide.
They killed and injured millions of global citizens, right?
Not only by paving the way for the vaccine, but by withholding early treatment.
Such as Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin, that is now proven to be 99% effective, right? So these are mass killers.
They not only committed fraud, but they should be indicted to criminal courts.
So that's what happened.
And then a year later, the same thing happened with the New England Journal of Medicine.
They colluded Rochelle Walensky, the main editors of the main editors of the New England Journal of Medicine, Eric Rubin and Richard Morrissey, had Walensky.
And they did a publication that was published April 21st, 2021. And then a second article that very same day was published by Shima Bakuro and 20 other federal employees. Both of these publications pushed the vaccine as safe, effective, and necessary in pregnancy.
And it was fraud.
It was criminal.
They, too, should be indicted for crimes against humanity, not just spanked.
They need to have criminal charges of genocide brought against them, and they need to be tried in a court of law.
They breached their own ethical guidelines that are published in the New England Journal of Medicine that says you must reveal your conflicts of interest.
Well, there was massive amounts of money that flowed from Rochelle Walensky's organization to the Massachusetts kind of laundering through the Massachusetts Department of Health.
Then to the Massachusetts Medical Society.
Massachusetts Medical Society owns the New England Journal of Medicine, Peter.
So, it was a massive circle of money laundering.
And in the very least, they were compelled by their own ethical guidelines published in their own journal to disclose that.
They never did.
And, you know, it gets worse.
It gets much worse.
The New England Journal of Medicine article in April 21st, e-publication by Shima Bakuro and colleagues, alleged that it was safe, effective.
They alleged a miscarriage rate of 12.6%, which, by the way, was three times greater than it should have been for an established pregnancy in an obstetrician's office.
But it wasn't 12.6%. It was 82%.
And I've published that.
I've proven that by manipulation.
And this Shimabakuro study was taken from the V-SAFE data link, which has been now proven to be corrupt and manipulated.
The ICANN attorney, Aaron Seary, has published 10 articles in his Substack on the corruption.
The ICANN, Informed Consent Action Network, Aaron Seary, look it up, look his up.
There's 10 articles showing the horrible perversion and lying and fraudulent manipulation of this V-safe system.
So this is, and this is published in my articles.
This is all published in reference.
You know, nobody can sue me for slander or defamation.
As the attorneys tell me there's one solid defense against slander and defamation it's called the truth.
No, 100 percent.
Can I just, where we're nearly out of time, just wanted to touch one of the articles give people a flavor what they'll get on your Substack and there's a four-part series you've just put out.
I think it's a guest author has written it the covid 19 vaccines and beyond what the medical industrial complex is not telling us and the first one looks at looks at flu and Covid and looks at miscarriages and fetal deaths.
And I actually felt quite sick just looking at the 10 times the rate if not more on some of those and that little chart that you have on the top of that Substack really drives home the huge impact that we've seen the devastation with those jabs.
So I just would encourage, because that four-part series is really important.
But the figures you have on that chart at the top of the part one is devastating when you see those.
Thank you, Peter.
And by the way, we have published a book.
That was my first book, COVID-19 and Beyond, and that's available on Amazon. The lead author is Sally Saxon.
The second author is Dr. Deborah Viglione.
The third author is myself.
And volume two, a new book, following that book up is also soon to be published in addition to Sacrifice, how the deadliest vaccine in history targeted the most vulnerable. It's such an honor and a privilege to be on this platform with you, Peter McIlvenna.
It's great.
Dr. Thorp, thank you for what you do.
And as someone who follows Jesus, the most important thing is truth and is speaking truth and doing what you're called to do.
So thank you for your example.
Thank you for the work you put in, the huge amount of research.
And the public can pre-order your book.
It'll come out the 10th of December.
Great Christmas present, get some people help them wake up.
They sacrifice for the deadliest vaccine, in the history, targeted the most vulnerable, make sure and get hold of it and get a copy.
Dr. Thorp thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you Peter for having me on. I am looking forward to meeting with you again
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In Conversation with Tommy Robinson

Join Hearts of Oak for an exclusive interview with Tommy Robinson, where he delves into his ongoing legal battles and the profound impact of his activism.
Robinson shares insights into his voluntary return to the UK and his subsequent detention under contentious terrorism legislation, shedding light on what he describes as a concerted effort to stifle journalistic freedom. He discusses the pivotal role of social media in amplifying alternative voices against the backdrop of mainstream media's alleged collusion with state powers.
Despite facing vilification, Robinson points to a swelling tide of public support, underscoring a disconnect between the establishment's narrative and the grassroots sentiment. Tune in as he criticizes political figures for their lack of solidarity and calls for a united stand at an upcoming rally, positioning it as a critical juncture in the battle for free speech and the preservation of national identity.
Connect with Tommy Robinson:𝕏:  https://x.com/TRobinsonNewEra
Gettr: https://gettr.com/user/TommyRobinson1
Interview recorded 23.10.24*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                       www.x.com/HeartsofOakUK
WEBSITE            www.heartsofoak.org/
PODCASTS        www.heartsofoak.podbean.com/
SOCIAL MEDIA  www.heartsofoak.org/connect/
SHOP                 www.heartsofoak.org/shop/
Transcript:
Perfect, Peter.
How are you?
Good, good.
So, on Saturday, there are lots to talk about in a short space of time, but you're back on Saturday.
It's going to be a huge day.
Let me touch on that.
Let's touch on your book and then what's been happening in the UK with Patriots, basically, in jail with Peter Lynch, that.
But on Saturday, tell us about Saturday.
Why should people be there?
First of all, I didn't have to come back.
My offence is a civil offence, which means that they couldn't have forced me to come back.
There's no way they could have come and got me on an extradition order for a civil offence.
So, I didn't have to come back.
So, for the record, I've chosen to come back.
So, as you follow whatever happens in my upcoming court case, know that I chose that.
I chose to play the film.
I'm going to tell the judge that. I made the decision, a conscious decision, to play the film. It's my job as a journalist to show the truth.
It's been my job to talk about the difficult subjects that others shy away from. I made that decision on the 27th of July to play that film, knowing full well that they would send me to prison.
And I've done that because I believe I'll let them hurt me to hurt themselves. Because 54 million views on the documentary so far and the entire globe watching what's happening in London this Saturday and in my upcoming court case, it's going to damage them more than it's going to damage me.
I'll go to jail, I'll come back out of jail.
I am concerned that they can give me four years, but I'm in that position now. So that's where I'm at.
So this Saturday, I still, Peter, just to say, there's a warrant out for my arrest, yeah?
Yeah, yeah.
They didn't arrest me at the border.
Yeah, you came in fine.
Okay, so that's not right.
That shouldn't have happened.
So I believe I'm answering bail on Friday for terrorism offences.
Terrorism.
I'm about to be charged under terrorism legislation.
So, on the 27th of July, when we held our successful rally, the next day I was detained at the border under terrorism legislation.
The legislation that's been passed by the Labour government, that's who passed it originally, states there's no right to remain silent.
So when you're in an airport or at a border, if you're detained by the counterterrorism unit, you have no right to remain silent.
So for six hours, I was grilled, and I had to answer every question.
If I didn't answer any question, I'm automatically charged under the Terrorism Act.
But the other thing is, you have to give them your passcode to your phone.
Now, if you don't, you are in breach of the Terrorism Act.
Now, I refused because the reason being I'm a journalist.
I'm a journalist, and my sources of information are protected.
At least I thought they were.
But they then arrested me.
So when I said, "No, you'll not have," and I gave my justified reason, your police forces have allowed the addresses of victims of sexual exploitation by grooming gangs to be targeted.
You've got rid of evidence.
Corrupt police officers have been working with them.
Officers have even been raping the girls.
And you want me to give you my sources of information so you can put them on some database computer system that any police officer can access, including every Muslim police officer across the country?
It's not happening.
So I give as a journalist, when people give me information, do you know episode six, Peter?
We're on episode six of The Rape of Britain.
Lots of things have been thrown in my way.
Episode six, we have covert recordings that make serious allegations against a leading Labour politician.
They know that because counterterrorism questioned me about it.
So that's what they want to get in my phone for.
I know why you want to get in there.
And they have got in my phone already because I've had emails going back and forth to my solicitor about warrants that have gone to the judge.
So I'm answering bail because I didn't let them in my phone. They should have charged me there and then, but they didn't.
So my solicitors believe, because I have to go there at three o'clock, two things are going to happen.
They're going to charge me under the Terrorism Act.
And they then will possibly try and remand me to prison this Friday.
Now, they're planning that because of the demonstration on Saturday.
And the current outstanding warrant I have, which I haven't executed, I believe they'll do that this Friday.
Because then there's no chance for me to get bail because it's Friday.
I'll be held for court on Monday.
Could you see this attack on journalists?
I mean, Martin Sellner was blocked going into, was it, Switzerland, like two weeks ago, and they brought a 14-day restriction because he was going to speak at that weekend.
And it seems as though that's in Germany.
But this kind of attack on journalists, you'd expect China or Middle East, but it's here in the UK.
And I'm about to go to jail for between two and four years on Monday for making a film, for making a film.
And there's no argument.
There's no argument about the contents of the film.
There's no argument that I've made stuff up.
It's just that they didn't want you to see the film because they were busy lying to you, deceiving you.
And the biggest question for me is when you watch this documentary, which 54 million people have, what else are they lying about?
What other stories are we being spoon-fed by the globalist, corporate-controlled bastard of a media and the politicians?
All of them work.
There's like an unholy alliance.
We look at it in the documentary.
The media, the politicians, the police, they all work together.
And they work together to control a narrative to feed you and spoon-feed you.
Bullshit.
Just as they've done with COVID, just as they've done with vaccines, lockdowns, Brexit. Whatever subject they choose, they choose what you know and what you hear.
Whatever person or character they choose, like me, but not just me, Martin Sellner, any of these characters, they tell you who they are.
They don't want you to hear from us.
And Elon Musk is really in their way. And now you see their scheme.
Okay, so Musk.
Yeah, Musk.
Okay. You've met a lot of people.
You've connected with a lot of people.
But it's still Musk, you look at it whenever he retweets and says, what's wrong with the video, you probably thought, holy shit.
Well, I looked through every morning during the troubles.
Yeah.
The riots, and every morning, three, four of our posts were liked by Elon Musk.
He was following everything. Now, what Elon Musk allowed was the British public to see what their media didn't want you to see.
Now, obviously, with their control element, through censorship and big tech, and before big tech, they controlled you through their mainstream newspapers and the TV.
All of a sudden, social media comes.
They've lost control.
There's a populist revolution across the world, starting in India with Modi.
Then we see Brazil.
Then we see America.
We see all these countries.
They lost control for a few years.
Boom.
Through big tech, delete everyone, censor everyone, change the algorithms, push their voices. They regained control. I was disappeared for five years.
In comes a billionaire who's not willing to back down, buys up X for 40, what, 48 billion pounds.
Fuck you to the establishment.
We're having free speech again. What does free speech mean?
It means Tommy Robinson goes like this.
And it means 1.7 billion people have interacted with my stuff in the last 12 weeks.
It means that you're searching for the truth.
The public want the truth.
They know they're being lied to.
The best thing is at the minute, they know, the public know, they're being deceived at every level.
We all know mass immigration is not good for us. We know diversity is not our strength.
We know we're being replaced.
We know it's all orchestrated.
There is no refugee crisis.
They're creating it.
They're bringing them in.
So you're being replaced. You're being enslaved.
Your wages are going down.
Your cost of living is going up, and that's all planned. Every last bit of it is not, it's manufactured.
And anyone who's talking about it, they used to just be able to go, delete him from YouTube.
Yeah, we'll delete him from Facebook.
We'll ban his name.
Not anymore because of X. So Elon Musk is, I keep saying it, he won't be remembered for Tesla.
He won't be remembered for sending things up into space. He'll be remembered for saving freedom of speech.
And the Department of Government Efficiency, Dodge, when he does that.
He can't wait.
Two weeks, but in those two weeks, see, I'll be in jail.
I'll be in prison too late for me.
So what does it mean?
Because you talk to people in the UK and they see you through the prism of the media, the legacy media.
And I know talking to members of the establishment more and they are, you know, the Daily Mail says this or the Times says this.
But that Times piece saying Jordan Peterson has mainstream Tommy, that was intriguing. What has that been like?
Because the world sees you one way, but the Brits see you through the prism of the Daily Mail.
America doesn't see it that way. They see you through the prism of Jordan Peterson saying, this guy's great.
Yeah.
Well, I don't think the Brits see me through the Daily Mail either.
I just think that their whole monopoly and the power they've had is gone.
They just don't realize it.
They've tried to make me the most hated man in Britain. And in doing so, they've made me the Robin Hood of Britain.
They've made me.
The more they attack me, the better my profile goes.
And the more they attack me, and there's a reason for that, when they're attacking me, people know it's because they want to attack them. I'm giving people a voice.
I'm saying things that people aren't prepared to say because they've got jobs and they'll lose careers.
So they're grateful that I say it. So when they see me come under immense attack, they feel aligned and emotionally attached to the story. So lots of people do.
So, I get surprised in the street at how people embrace me, not just, "All right, Tommy," but the fact I've had people come up to me crying their eyes out regularly.
So, I see the attachment they feel, and I have my finger on the pulse, which is why even with Nigel Farage, I think you haven't got your finger on the pulse.
You're making these comments, and you don't get the feeling and mood of this nation currently where we are.
I don't think anyone can quite understand how quickly this has changed in 18 months.
Katie Hopkins, for example. Katie Hopkins left this country the most hated woman in Britain. She's returned. I've walked down the street with her.
I've gone into London with her. I've taken her to the local pub.
And she's loved.
She's a fucking hero.
She's loved by everyone.
She's a women's champion.
Yeah? So...
They're not winning.
And they know they're not winning.
And even now, so I've been very emotional last week. So every time I've spoken about issues, I end up bawling my eyes out on each one of the things. But every time, it's pretty embarrassing.
I'm waiting for all these videos and all these interviews are coming out this week. It's just me crying.
I'm like, baby. But that's because I'm thinking of my kids and I'm thinking of the effect.
I make decisions.
Every decision I make has an effect on my family and they have to deal with it as well.
But to the establishment, which is basically what my statement to the court says, "Do your fucking best."
Yeah, I'm not here to apologize, at all.
In fact, I've done my job, yeah? If my job puts me on the wrong side of your bullshit injunction that prohibits the public seeing the truth, and that means I have to sit in a prison cell, off I go.
Yeah, now that's the position I'm in, and I know, and I don't think they get it.
Say they go maximum on me and give me four years.
They're going to enrage people.
My work for 15 years has been to wake people up, to get them to view what's happening and understand what's happening.
Understand we have a politicized, weaponized judiciary.
We don't have a justice system.
We have a legal system.
When they, the establishment, one, they put a target on you, they use that legal system as a weapon of the totalitarian state because we don't live in a free state.
We don't live in a democracy.
All total bullshit.
So they don't realize by gunning for me like they're going to and probably hammering me, they're awakening more people than I can ever.
It'd take me seven days a week of work for the next 10 years to wake up the amount of people that will be woken up on Monday when they send me to jail.
And there's a distinction between the police, the Bobby on the beat, those who work on the streets.
They all shake my hand.
Yeah, but also the government because it's not necessarily the Bobby on the beat who just joined the police to fight crime; they are being told what to do.
And they're simply following, because every police force follows the orders of the government. And we have a far-left government, and they're basically told what to do.
This case has not been brought against me by the police.
This case is not...
So Jamal, the child in this story, has not asked for me to be prosecuted, which is the usual process.
His lawyers have not asked for me to be prosecuted.
I am being prosecuted by the Attorney General of Keir Starmer's government.
That's who's charging.
And first it was the Conservatives.
It was the Conservatives, yeah.
And it just gets passed on.
It's a Tommy file. Keep it up.
Yeah, keep it up.
There's no difference.
I hope people realize that.
What Labour has done in the last three months, they've just shown themselves.
The Conservatives were doing exactly the same.
They were building this aspect of a totalitarian, controlled state.
They were busy.
They've been busy for 13 years abusing your rights and planning it all.
Labour has come in and just gone, "Fucking, we don't care what people think."
Whack. Let's do it really quick.
Let's hammer them.
Let's put people in jail, like Peter Lynch, for two years, eight months.
For what?
Have you seen the videos?
So I've seen the videos, but that two-tier system and Elon Musk is, when he was told, shut up, he just doubled down.
How well have we seen that two-tier system?
But Musk, using a hashtag two-tier kier, was like, this is beautiful, being the opposition to the government. But that, you can have rapists who...
You can have rapists who get out after two, three years.
You can get those with sex images of children actually walk free, like we've seen if you're part of the establishment.
But you say hurdy words to a police officer or you shout something at a dog and you get put two and a half years.
I think we are seen through it.
Politicians now who were silent, media people who were silent, are now saying, this has gone too far. I mean, hell yes, it's gone too far.
Do you know that, for me, Reform had five candidates selected?
Yeah. Have you heard any of them talk about Peter Lynch yet?
Have you heard any of them talk about the demographic replacement of Great Britain, or us as Britain?
No, they're afraid of that.
Have you heard any of them talk about any of the fucking subjects that people voted for them for? No. You're meant to be reformed.
You were elected to be the opposition voice, to give the people without a voice a voice. And you're doing the same shit.
You're meant to be the different...
I'll just sit and think, well, I've been waiting for the fireworks.
Where's the fireworks? You were elected.
Do you know what?
If I stand for election and I go into Parliament, you'll see fireworks.
Yeah.
I'll fucking let the whole fucking place go.
And I'll tell them everything that you want to tell them.
So I'm reforming, I look and think, well, he's got to be careful, he's an MP now.
What do you mean he's got to be careful?
He was voted in not to be careful.
You were voted in there to give a voice to the voiceless. Well, the voiceless at the minute are being killed in jail.
They're being murdered.
The voiceless are being taken from their kids and put in prison for hurtful fucking words.
And you're sitting there silent.
And you've actually promised you'd be a voice for the people's movement.
Well, all the people are being trampled on.
The people's rights are being taken.
What are you doing about it? It just winds me up. I think, no, you said you were different.
You said you were going to be different.
You've all just sat there doing exactly the same as all the other parties, being careful. No one wants you to be careful. You weren't elected to be careful.
But a lot of MPs are elected, as we know, as you know, because they want a position.
It's not about doing good. It's about power, influence and a position.
They want to be part of the establishment.
Whereas we want to tear down that establishment.
But they've perceived, they've given the image, which even I was guilty of telling people to vote for Reform, they've told people this is what they want to do.
And then they've done nothing.
Since they've got in, I'm not being funny, what have they done since they've got in?
Absolutely fuck all.
They haven't challenged, they won't talk about Islam, so as you become a minority in your town and city, as another 30 mosques are being built today around the nation, they're not going to talk about it.
They'll sit there quietly while Islam takes over Great Britain, and then they'll talk about the boats.
Oh, the boats.
The boats aren't the biggest problem here, yeah?
The boats are easy to talk about.
You need to talk about difficult issues, like the fact that we, by 2041, as white Brits, Anglo-Saxons, are going to be a minority in our own country.
That cannot be allowed. And they won't talk about it.
For me, it's cowardice. It's total cowardice.
You were elected to give a voice to the voiceless, and the voiceless are still voiceless.
What are your thoughts in two weeks?
A huge event that will give us the ability to return free speech.
And I think why the establishment fear Trump getting back in again, which all mean all the betting sites have him winning.
I was watching yesterday, Sky News were having to admit that every betting site has him winning in every swing state and therefore winning.
But if he wins, it kicks off, it encourages the populist movement side across Europe and then gives us hope here.
Because here it's a few individuals, but not a political movement.
What he does is he makes Viktor Orban a somebody again.
He makes the new Austrian leader a powerhouse. At the minute, the Western leaders or the communist leaders are in power, whether it be Macron, whether it be Keir Starmer, whether it be the Germans who are trying to ban and outlaw AFD, the Democratic Party.
They become nobodies, minus Trump wins.
Trump builds his allegiance with the populist leaders.
And just to make a point again on the populist leaders, you see all these populist leaders.
You see Le Pen, you see Wilders, Swedish Democrats.
When I started my activism, Swedish Democrats were on 1.5% of the vote.
They're now on 25%.
They didn't get there, Nigel Farage, by being fucking cowards.
They got there by saying Islam has to stop. It has to go.
They didn't get there by mixing the words.
And you know the whole time that they were brave and fearless when they were putting their lives on the line, their reputations, all of these populist leaders, Nigel Farage's UKIP refused to align with them.
The whole time said they're toxic and they're far right.
Like, we're all far right.
So, yeah, it winds me up that the people's only choice at the minute is a party that gave away the chairman position to a Muslim who funded the most money.
Sold their fucking heart like that.
It just winds me up because I think there is...
I was hoping to build a cultural movement and hope that, okay, there's Reform.
Let them be the political solution.
We will electrify the working class.
No point in electrifying the working
When I've watched you over the years, one phrase that comes out is attitude and how you actually engage and deal with an issue and where the system thought they could actually get rid of you and crush you, that you've got that tenacity that you just keep pushing back.
And I think that can be infectious.
I think that's why these rallies, the book, we'll touch on that, but why all of that is so important, it's so essential, because you show what it means to go into battle, kind of the same attitude as Bannon has.
But I don't want to.
I know.
So I've been shitting myself.
You're not asking for it.
No, and I've been shitting myself.
And I've been shitting myself.
But at the same time, I know that if they were able to silence me and shut me up and break me, then it would send a devastating message to the rest of the people who are looking at me.
And as you said, courage is contagious.
So people will see and think, well, hold on, if he can stand up. And do you know, on our last event, I look at the people at our last event, I look at the people who are going to come on the 26th, even if they manage to put me in jail.
I look and think, each one of them showed immense courage because I know the process you've gone through.
I know you've been worried about going.
I know you've been scared.
I know you've thought about your reputation.
I know you've thought about your neighbors.
What have my neighbors seen?
What if everyone says I'm at a far-right rally?
What if the media...
And then you've got to the point where you've gone, you know what?
Fuck all that, all right?
I'm doing the right thing.
And courage is still being scared.
But still, you're terrified.
But you still know what the right thing to do is.
And sometimes, unfortunately, in a tyrannical totalitarian state, doing the right thing is sometimes seen by them as doing the wrong thing.
There's a time that comes and mass disobedience is needed, and you talk about our latest book, "Manifesto," that went straight to number one.
Knocked Boris Johnson off the top spot.
And the thing is, I just laugh because that's my fourth Amazon bestseller.
Was it The Guardian wrote a piece and they hadn't read it?
They wrote a piece about the reviews.
Read the book.
Your response and the way they acted is exactly what we predict in the book about a controlled state, and they're lying to you about everything, letting you understand how the world actually works.
How this country works, how everything's planned and orchestrated, including the immigration crisis, how they don't actually care who they're farming.
We're like animals to be farmed, yeah?
And they don't care what color or race we are as long as the 1% are just milking the fucking shit out of us, yeah?
And they want us to have less freedom and less movement, less everything.
And for them to get richer and for us to get poorer, and then all of us to be down here like little ants just being governed by them.
That's the plan.
They're being very successful, but if enough people wake up to it and plan mass disobedience, like for example, a million people calling in sick one day.
Sort of what we need to understand that we have the power, we just need to come together.
Sorry, my phone doesn't stop.
It's a new phone.
I don't know how to put it.
That's just my little girl.
I don't know how to put it on silent on this new one.
It used to be there, didn't it?
How do you put the 16 on silent?
Tommy's looking for a new tech person to help on.
Yeah, I lost my phone.
But the police, you know, took my phone on the 27th of July.
They gave it back to me, and straight away, as soon as I got it back, it came up with an error saying, "not an original Apple battery, not an original Apple screen."
Oh, really?
I wonder what you've been up to there, guys.
Give me back a phone that you're fucking watching everything on.
But they can call anyone a terrorist because obviously, as you pointed out, it gives them the right to then access your information.
So it's irrelevant.
Whether they think you're going to carry out any activity really in terrorism.
It's simply using that as a way of accessing journalists.
They actually told me as they detained me, "We believe you may be in preparation of acts of terrorism."
And they said, "We know you're not.
We know you're not that.
We know you're not, Tommy, but this legislation gives us the opportunity to do this."
It's like, oh mate, this is insane.
The book, Manifesto, because Peter McLaughlin is your co-author and he obviously wrote Easy Meat and he understands the grooming.
I mean, he kept records, and he's a perfect person.
He's the most intelligent man I've ever come across.
The most intelligent man, do you know how he predicted and sat and told me that COVID was coming the year before?
So I have all these discussions going back and forth about the money bubble, the printing of money, gold, where we're heading, what's happening.
And about a year before COVID, he said they're going to create and manufacture a massive crisis because the money bubble is going to burst.
And they've just been printing money, and it doesn't work like that.
And when it bursts, everyone's going to look for someone to blame.
They need something else.
So they're going to create something, probably a pandemic.
Probably, and he told me all this, and then COVID comes, and he rang me, I remember him ringing me up and said, "Tommy, I said, I fucking know, you told me so."
I know, he goes, "This is it, mate, this is it, this is it, lockdown, printing money, this is it, this is them controlling it, which is what immigration is all part of."
So using Peter's knowledge, as well as my life experience, and what we've seen together, we put it into a book called "Manifesto," giving people an opportunity to understand this is how the world works, and it's going to piss them off.
You see when the actual one percent read that because they've lied throughout the whole history.
They just change history, they change it.
They decide what happened and they change and decide what you know about a certain individual.
So, for example, if it wasn't for X over the last five years, once I was censored, you go on Google and search my name, none of my videos come up.
It's all the propaganda hit pieces against me.
They then are in the education system.
So throughout the whole national curriculum now, they teach the next generation of kids about me.
Well, guess what they're teaching them?
They're not teaching them about a nice guy who stood up for my country or my rights or young women who were getting raped.
They're teaching them I'm a racist, I'm an extremist.
They put up a picture of Adolf Hitler and then they put up a picture of me. So the next generation is being brainwashed; this is what they do.
So, the whole generation of people come out who have access only now to the internet because I'm not allowed on any social media, and they just get fed and history, their history that they're teaching will tell the next generation I was the devil.
Until someone like Elon Musk comes along and says, "No, you won't."
Well, let Tommy have a voice.
And then I can just go, bang, yeah, here we are, 54 million views.
And we can buy books that they can't get rid of.
And then people, and then you can see the appetite for the books is there because each one of them has gone straight to number one.
That must infuriate.
I remember there's this.
It's so badly you sold OUT. That's how badly it did.
And do you know what?
On pre-orders, the new books come this week.
By Monday, we've sold out.
We've sold out again, yeah?
So it's like, what's the journalist?
There's a journalist from Cambridge who always writes shit about me.
That doesn't narrow us down, does it?
And he's an author.
And every time my book goes to number one, because I've gone on Twitter and I message him saying, "Oi, oi, this football hooligan's got his fourth bestselling number one.
Your whole life is dedicated to trying to be an author and you can't sell any books, bro." But anyway, the fight is on.
I said it's fight or flight.
And I could have chosen to stay away from day dot when I started my activism talking about Islam.
We've never run away from the issue.
Yes, I went away.
Yes, I stayed away until this week.
Why did I stay away until this week?
So that me and my team could put together a documentary to expose Keir Starmer and his regime of tyrants.
So the documentary goes live this Saturday.
So again, if they detain me on Friday, they're going to blow shit up on the media. It's going to go around the world. Our documentary's going to get more views. The documentary's still going out.
I've already made a video to be played on the 26th, yeah?
It's still happening.
When you send me to prison, I've already made a video about that.
So I know through the power of our movement, because we are a movement, you think you can cut the head off.
We're a movement.
Everyone's part of it.
And they're just going to go boom.
And the whole entire globe is going to look at the judge who sentenced me to jail.
They're going to look at Keir Starmer.
And if any of you clowns think they're going to look at me negatively, they're not.
They're looking at you negatively. In this battle, I win.
I temporarily lose in jail, but eventually, I win.
It's not just me that wins, we win.
The future belongs to nationalists.
The future belongs to patriots.
You communist tyrants, Keir Starmer, enjoy your little period.
You're going to be remembered as the worst prime minister this country ever had. You'll never last five years.
Never, ever last five years.
The Bannon phrase, next man up, he was put away in jail, is going to be released in a few days. As a hero? Yeah, as a hero.
Oh, Steve.
But nothing has stopped.
You've got the war and posse stepping to do that.
And for you, it's happened whenever you've been locked away, people still stand up.
It doesn't stop us.
The biggest demonstration will happen once I'm locked away. So we've had three United Kingdoms.
I'm going to plan my fourth United Kingdom once I get my release date.
You're slowing it down temporarily, but I don't think you will slow it down.
What I think my imprisonment will do is galvanize our support base and bring them together more than anything.
Now, there'll be a lot of attempts just to warn you.
There will be attempts to cause infighting, cause disruption.
The government will be everywhere waiting.
The minute I get imprisoned, bang.
The government infiltrators come out, and so will the far-right racist Nazi scumbags who always have been, but none of them are willing to leave.
None of them are willing to put their face up there.
So I hope, I'll give a date.
I hope to hear as many of you outside the prison as possible in a couple of weeks.
And it's built because I remember the Free Tommy demo on Whitehall.
I think Raheem and people like that were leading that.
That goes by me six, seven years.
But the current time we find ourselves in because of the COVID tyranny means that a lot of people have woken up and realised, actually, you cannot trust the media where before maybe they did.
You cannot trust the police where before they did.
And there's an absolute lack of trust. So the message you're bringing that we can come together and start something is so important.
I think so timely.
So timely.
And do you know how powerful you've been on the events, man?
And it's like, look, I've got goosebumps just thinking.
I've got goosebumps just thinking.
Oh, it's fun.
People coming together, it is good fun.
It's not just fun, it's camaraderie. It's like we're there together, and it's us versus them.
And everyone here in this crowd now realizes that.
And if you fuck with one of us, you fuck with all of us.
And Keir Starmer decided that, yeah, when he started imprisoning innocent British people, brave people, hardworking people, men.
He fought, and his government fought that would make us all terrified.
And make us hide and stop commenting.
Because the hope is that you self-censor.
The hope is you don't talk about these issues.
The hope is you don't think you can go out and legally protest.
What we're going to show you this Saturday, we're going to show the world, is that you can.
Bigger, better, stronger, louder.
This Saturday, 26th.
When's this going out?
It's going out Friday. It's all gone a day before.
Come on, get your shit together.
Get your train ticket.
Get out to London.
Scott, don't go to football. No more excuses.
If your missus says she can't go, leave her.
Right?
Leave her.
I didn't say that.
See you later.
Do you know what the difference is?
It's the women that are coming.
I mean, the men tell you the women they can't go.
It's a family thing.
Kids coming along.
Here is the text with corrected grammar:
I am so shocked at the amount of women.
And do you know when you win the women?
And why the women?
Because British women are looking around.
They're scared.
They've got daughters.
They've got families.
They've got futures.
They're looking and thinking, hold on a minute.
I had a woman who stopped me.
She lives in beautiful North Wales.
And she said, "I never used to like you at all.
Yeah.
And now they've put all these migrants in my little village, and we're all scared, and they're harassing the women."
I said, "And now you see what I've spoken about."
She said, "I've looked into everything now."
She said, "I'm sorry.
For 10 years, I've hated you.
I've hated you."
She said, "And now I'm looking, and Jesus, he's right about all of it."
That's because now it's a sad state of affairs.
So many people can see it.
But what's Keir Starmer managed to do with the riots?
He hasn't discussed anything.
He hasn't discussed the rapes, the murders, any of the crimes committed, any of the stabbings, any of the killings, knife crime, terrorism, jihad, Islam.
He hasn't had to talk about any of it by branding all of you as far-right.
So on the 26th, it's that important that you behave.
It's that important that you don't give them any ammunition to attack us. Any of their instigators with face masks.
If you wear a face mask, it will be asked to be removed.
If you don't remove it, we have 400 security at this event.
We will remove it.
Okay, you will be escorted away from the demonstration.
So please, lads, I understand your anger.
I understand everyone's anger. We have a right to be angry. But if we didn't have a platform and people weren't listening, I'd understand the overstepping of the aggression. But the entire globe is watching you this Saturday.
If I'm not there, the entire world, their media, every important live streamer, everyone, their eyes are on you.
Make us proud and make your country proud, man.
Make your country proud, make Keir Starmer feel like the little fucking weasel that he is, sitting in number
Shitting himself thinking, "Ah, it didn't work.
We thought jailing them all would work. No, Keir, it doesn't work, no.
It doesn't work. Prison's not gonna stop us, mate, at all.
Nothing's gonna stop us.
So when we say we want our country back, we mean it.
And there's no end to that.
It's not like we're gonna stop fighting, we're gonna carry on fighting forever."
So come, make sure you're following his Twitter account, X account, or whoever is putting it on.
But yeah, come and be smart. Don't fall into the trap.
No, come and smile.
Come and smile and have a great day.
Because I know each one of them has been great.
So you'll soon forget your anger with the music we've got going on.
We've got a band, a beautiful band, the British Patriot Band.
It's the Black Gospel Girls.
We've got them singing four songs.
We've got a surprise guest who's a fabulous singer, singing three songs.
And we've got another lad who sings songs about Keir Starmer, singing three songs.
So we have a lot of music, as well as a fabulous new expose documentary to premiere on the day, as well as a list of multiple speakers, some coming from France, some people coming from America, some people coming from Canada, people coming from Australia, from all over the world, they're coming into London.
So if they can make the effort to get on flights and come from that far, get on the train, man.
I know it's expensive, I know it's hard, I know it's difficult, but the 26th of October is going to be etched into British history.
It's a time when we stood up to Keir Starmer.
Of course, just drive down and share with people.
And bring family and bring kids, because this is all about, as you've talked about, Tommy, about kids, the future generation, fighting for a country of freedom for them.
It was great to see all the families, man.
Do you know what?
It was great to see the total diversity of the crowd and to see that, I'll just smile, because I think all your years have lied to the public. It fucking didn't work at all.
Everywhere I'm going, do you know the black community, the Asian community, the Hindu community, the Sikh community, everywhere I go, I get a show of love.
They didn't hate me because of your bullshit.
No one believed you. Your media power's gone.
We are the media, yeah?
We are the media.
I've done a little rant yesterday about Peter Lynch's death.
It's at 1.8 million views.
Go eat your heart out, BBC, yeah?
We are the voice of the people, and nothing's going to stop us, all right?
Tommy, thank you, and I'll certainly be there on Saturday, as will tens and tens of thousands. Let's go for 100,000.
Let's go for over 100,000.
Let's just take over London, man.
Yeah. I hope that we've put on a...
No, each time it's been a festival, so I hope you've enjoyed it each time.
And if I'm in prison, then smile for me, because I'll be smiling as well.
I'll be smiling knowing that they have just awoken more people, and I'll be looking forward to reading your mail, hearing from each one of you, and I am blessed.
I'm blessed that I know my children will be supported and will be okay no matter what happens.
So thank you, thank you, for you know, the whole way through this fight when I've been down at times and feeling like fucking hell, man.
I know there's an army behind me, and I read every one of your messages. I may not answer the DMs, but I read the heartfelt messages; I read the support. It picks me up, and if ever I'm down, I just pick up my phone, go through the DMs, look for the hot chicks, I'm joking, but I'm grateful.
I'm very grateful for your support, every one of you, and even my legal battle now, Ezra.
I was fucked last two weeks ago; I was fucked. Even fucking weeks, Ezra rides.
Ezra Rides save the day.
And he's been so busy, and he goes, "What's the latest?" I ain't even got a lawyer booked; they froze the Tide account, which is where they froze it. They refused point-blank; we've got them.
I've got the stuff to show the judge.
We said, "Okay." They said, "We'll send the money to another account in this name."
So, well, we can't get one in this name because you've closed it, you know?
So then we set up another account, and then we got them to send the money there, and it said "pending" for seven days.
And then the new account, they sent us an email.
"We're closing again before we get the money."
So then we said, "Right, so we're at the stage now.
We need the bloody money.
I'm in a court case.
Send the money directly to lawyers.
We'll get the lawyers to message you."
"No, we can't do that. We won't do that." Then we can set an account up abroad, you know?
And then we send them the same name account, and they say, "No, it has to be in the UK." It's like, you literally are stopping us from being able to defend ourselves.
Now, why would they do that?
My first line of defense in this case, they never gave me an injunction.
During the opening of this trial, they're asking the judge to excuse the fact they never gave me the injunction.
I swear to God, I've read it.
It's like, "What the fuck?" They admit they never gave me the injunction.
To give an injunction, they have to use a process server for it to be legitimately given. They say we emailed him it.
Well, that doesn't fucking count, does it?
That doesn't count.
That's not being given an injunction.
So you haven't given me a legal injunction.
So then their opening statement says, "We understand we did not follow procedure, but we're asking for the judge to excuse this."
So all they need to do is get a judge that doesn't actually follow the law because the law is the law, and Justice Nicklin, who gave me the injunction, we've got a case where he says that emailing does not constitute service.
So he's saying what he's done is not legal, but we won't get to that.
I am not, but I am not putting my hopes on that.
They're sending me to jail.
There's no way the Attorney General's office has not sat down and already knows they've got a fixed sentence for me.
So I'm going to jail.
I suspect I'll be happy if I get two years.
I'll be happy and smiling.
If they give me two years, I'm happy, yeah, because it could be four.
Unfortunately. And then I'll be on solitary confinement for a year.
But then, with your help, with Ezra's help, which Ezra said he's going to fly over, we then fight for a judicial review because they can't hold someone in solitary confinement for that long.
It's fucking ruined you, yeah?
So they're not allowed to do that.
So then they have to look up; we can fight.
The fight just continues.
And I've always been in a position to fight. I quite like a fight, yeah?
But I've always been in a position to fight because people have put me in that position.
Without you, there would be no fight.
So thank you.
And this time, Ferdragan family, you won't have Julian Assange up.
I won't have Julian Assange up above me at the wind, like twice.
What was that in there?
Four months?
Twice he spoke.
But imagine how broken he is.
Imagine how broken he was.
And they got away with that.
Look what they've done to him as a journalist.
They got away with it.
So who knows what they're going to do now.
But I also know that whatever they do, our voices will echo throughout the globe.
So please, if you want to know what you can do, share the documentary.
Make sure you share it everywhere.
If I'm in jail now, share it with your friends.
Play it.
Upload it.
It's only on 55 million.
Yeah, it's only on 55.
Send me a jail card.
Elon! Share the film.
You're at war with Keir Starmer.
Just show the film.
It destroys the judiciary. It proves everything we all know.
So, you want to put a smile on my face in jail, share the film then.
All right, Saturday. We'll see you there. And Victoria is it?
Victoria Station, 11 o'clock.
Must from 11 o'clock. Start at one.
It's going to be a beautiful day. Behave, everyone. And that's coming from me.
Be good.
Tommy says be good.
Be good, man.
That's what Lord P says.
I know.
I just spoke to Lord Pearson.
He said, I just spoke to Lord Pearson on the phone.
He said, Tommy, what was the last thing I said to you?
I said to you, please behave.
What have you done now?
I said, Lord P, I'm not going to behave.
All right?
Not with them in power. Cheers.
Yes, thank you.
To Peter, thanks.

Richard Gamble - Building Faith: The Journey to Constructing the Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer

🎙️ "Welcome, dear listeners, to a special episode of the Hearts of Oak podcast!
Today, we dive into a project that's not just building walls, but building faith, hope, and community. Join us as we explore the ambitious vision behind the Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer with its founder, Richard Gamble.
Imagine a monument not of stone, but of stories—a towering structure outside Birmingham, set to open its gates in 2027, where each brick whispers a tale of answered prayer.
This isn't just any wall; it's a beacon of positivity in a world that often highlights the negative. Richard Gamble, a man of many hats—from IT to church planting, and now, a monumental architect of faith—shares his journey, from a divine inspiration on a country walk to rallying a global community to contribute to this living testament of hope. Through his eyes, we'll see how this wall aims to change the narrative, showcasing the dynamic, ongoing conversation between humanity and divinity. It's more than a structure; it's a movement towards recognizing the miracles in our daily lives, a cultural shift towards embracing faith in a society where it's often overlooked.
Are you ready to be part of something bigger?
To add your story to a wall that will stand as a reminder of God's continuous work in our lives? Stay tuned as we delve into the vision, the challenges, and the ultimate goal of the Eternal Wall. This isn't just an interview; it's an invitation to participate in a legacy of faith and answered prayers. Let's get started!"
Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.Connect with Richard and the Eternalwall project:Website Eternal Wall: https://eternalwall.org.uk/Home - Eternal WallRichard Gamble: https://www.richardmgamble.com/Richard M. GambleLinkedin: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gamblerichard
Interview recorded 22.10.24
Connect with Hearts of Oak...𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUKWEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/Transcript:
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(Hearts of Oak)
And hello hearts of oak thank you so much for joining us once again with a brand new guest discussing a huge venture up in the middle of England on prayer and that is Richard Gamble.
Richard thank you so much for your time today yeah
Peter thanks for having me on I appreciate it.
Great and I've come across the website through different friends. This is the eternal where you can get eternalwall.org.uk.
And if you don't go any further in this interview, then check out that.
You can see how you can be involved in a huge project, maybe one of the first of its kind, looking at the importance of prayer and looking at answered prayer.
And I think often, certainly as Brits, we talk about unanswered prayer.
And this is about answered prayer, which is something very different. But this is the eternal wall of answered prayer just outside Birmingham, up in the middle of England.
But before we get into all of that, Richard, maybe I can ask you to introduce yourself.
You've got a varied background from Bible College, IT, chaplain at Leicester City, and then this huge project that it seems like a NOAA endeavor, being given something which is phenomenal.
But maybe take a moment and introduce yourself before we get on to the wall of answered prayer
Yeah, I'm 56 years old, three children married became christian when I was 20, I suppose you'd describe me as a bit entrepreneurial, tried loads of things, planting churches and stuff like that was rubbish at it.
Bought and sold a software business been involved in consultancy all you know really varied and you touched on being a sort of pastor to footballers in in the in the premier league so wide and varied a little bit crazy nobody knows what to do with me, but in 2004, I was and this sounds a bit strange, but I was I was carrying a cross around my county, because I wanted people to just think about Jesus during Easter rather than Cadbury's cream eggs, though I do love them.
And while I was doing that, it got a massive reaction and I sort of prayed and said, God, what do you want me to do next?
And he gave me this idea, vision to build a national landmark about Jesus.
So, the last 20 years of my life have been largely devoted to that.
And this is getting closer.
This is opening in 2027, so three years away. It'll be the largest symbol of hope.
This is from the website In the world, and we'll host an interactive collection of stories that will be a testament to God's faithfulness.
And it'll be constructed with one million bricks, each one linked to answered prayer.
Maybe just touch on that how people can go to websites and be on one of those for answered prayer and then we'll take a step back of the process.
Yeah, sure I mean the the thing that's unique there are many elements of this project that's unique, but if you look at all the national landmarks across the globe this is one that is crowdfunded, crowdsourced, but also crowd created.
So, what we're trying to do is create this giant infinity loop piece of art with stories from all over the world and the idea is that people go online onto eternalwar.org.uk and just share with there's as many stories as they can of times that they've prayed and how God has answered and the concept is that other people then can come to the monument or look online maybe they type in the storm of life that they're currently going through and then they can find stories of people who've been in the same situation of them but have found hope through prayer to Jesus and I suppose part of it is birthed Peter from you know that there's never any good news, you know.
There's never any good news I don't really watch the news very much these days because I just find it utterly depressing and we have to find ways to get the message of hope out there there's a lot of good.
Stuff happening on this planet God is not dead he's still alive he's still he's still active.
But but we are not in the structures of this world free to share those stories anymore so we have to find another way.
I'll not bring up the picture of it because I'll let the viewers and listeners go to the website and look it up for yourself.
It is a colossal endeavor.
I will get into all of that, but maybe take a step back.
I mean when did you have this idea which obviously is a god idea because no sane person would come up with this themselves using their logic and reason, but yeah, give me an insight into how you begun to have this idea and then how conversations were.
I mean how do you tell your wife you're going to build something?
Yeah, I mean that is the thing I came home one day and my wife saw my little twinkle in my eye and she was like, oh what's going on, and I was like I think we're going to build a national landmark babe.
And I suppose you know that the thing is well where do you start and bear in mind I'm completely impractical.
I'm banned from DiY in the house.
I set fire to my own bathroom once and that was the final straw for my wife.
So I had no idea where to start with that it was just an idea and a concept so really I spent 10 years talking about it to people and praying you know simple as that and then I carried on with my different businesses and endeavors.
And then 10 years ago, just that was the time when in my prayers, I really felt God's only right.
It's time to, it's time to get moving on that.
So I, The way that we started it really was we ran a global competition with the Royal Institute of British Architects because I thought I've got to have something to get this going.
And, you know, the crazy thing was we did a crowd funder where I basically said we're going to build a national landmark about Jesus.
It's going to be made of a million bricks.
I don't know what it's going to look like.
I don't know when it's going to be where I don't know where it's going to be and I don't know when we're going to be able to build it but if you want to back this project that'd be amazing and we had an incredible story where where all the money came in with a day to go on the campaign and that sort of literally kick-started us to get going.
And then with the royal institute of British architects we ran this global competition and we got 133 entries from 28 countries, and, you know, just try to get to that point of finding the right design, which is the winning design is like a giant white infinity loop, and it arches sort of 50 metres into the skyline.
So to give you an idea, in the UK, for UK listeners, that's about two and a half times the height of the Angel of the North.
For those in the States, if you imagine the Statue of Liberty taken off her plinth she'd just fit underneath it so it will be a it will be a colossal structure, and there's been a lot of prayer to get to where we've got and and to get the right people to help us to build this.
And when you think of size, the Christ the Redeemer statue, which many people will think of as a symbol of Christianity in Rio de Janeiro, I think that's like 30, 35 meters or something for the size.
So this would tower above something like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
But the interesting thing, Peter, is if you Google Christ the Redeemer in Rio de Janeiro, you don't find anything about Jesus.
And it basically has turned into this sort of supposedly a symbol of Brazil welcoming all people to the country.
And you may Google it and find out about a French bloke who built it.
But I think it's diverted significantly from its original purpose.
We believe that around 30 million people Google that landmark every year.
And our our vision if you like is well if we can get 30 million people googling eternal war then they're going to open it up and find this database of a million answered prayers, and what are you going to do you're going to want to search it.
You're going to want to find out the things that God has done and we hope that that will inspire people to try praying.
I think we find in today's age that a lot of signs that were built to point people towards God have just become tourist attractions.
You think of cathedrals all over the world, and people flock to see a cathedral.
And somehow many people don't make the connection that this is actually for God and pointing to God.
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right I remember in the beginnings of this watching a program about Notre Dame being burned and you know a leading architect started talking about what an incredible piece of architecture this was.
And I was like, wait a second, this is built for the glory of God and so we are doing a lot of work to make sure that we put in mechanisms to make sure that this is always unashamedly Christian, And the beauty, of course, is because every brick represents a story of answered prayer, you can never really change its meaning.
And we are building something that is going to last for hundreds of years.
And who knows what our country and what Western society is going to look like in a hundred years' time.
But what I can tell you with supreme confidence is that right in the heart of it, there'll be a massive landmark that will be telling people about Jesus and I think for your listeners that's the exciting thing that if they can take the time to share stories of when they prayed those stories are going to keep being told long after we've all left the planet.
It's a proper legacy project in that respect.
It's very unusual for the UK, for US listeners for the war and posse, faith and Christianity is very much a public issue where people regularly talk about we've moved far away from that in the UK.
I'm sure there must have been people that said, Richard you know, maybe we need something a bit smaller, just just hidden away somewhere.
We don't need to be so loud about this.
Yeah, you know it's really interesting in the in we have like a public consultation for the for the planning process the zoning process for those in the States and you know somebody came up to me, a Christian, and she said, you know I know god answers prayer, but why do you have to brag about it.
And sort of stormed off.
And it's very interesting to me that you know that the British culture is one of of reserve not really wanting to brag about it, and yet you know we've had an incredible story about how God gave us the land so that we know this is exactly the right place to build it.
And God has decided to do that in a country that is so quiet, but the word of God is pretty clear.
You know, there are literally hundreds of scriptures that talk about proclaiming the deeds of the Lord, remembering the things that he's done, meditating on his deeds.
There's loads of evidence of people putting stones down to remember what God has done.
And so I do think it's going to be a little jolt to the culture in this country when when it finally starts to get built you the.
The size of it, you touched on that, having the land.
You don't put something like this just in your back garden, so what were the what were those conversations, because you have an idea of concept one you can build it that's one thing.
You need to put it somewhere what were those conversations like with me local authorities or local landowners as you sought to find not only a piece of land, but permission to put it there?
Well yeah I'll take those two two things because they're two significant stories really. In terms of the land we presented the concept in parliament in 2000.
I think it was 2014 and I remember one of the members of parliament asking me well this is a great vision, but how are you going to fund it, and I just quick as a flash said oh I've got a really big backer behind me.
Which at the time I was very convinced that that was Jesus that was behind me, because I only had five pounds in the bank.
I was very happy that he didn't follow up with the question of who that big backer was, but at that point I was like well I really need to find some land so we were invited to go to a conference, my wife and I, in Reading, California.
And we went to that conference and my wife and I were like okay we've got to find land now, and then somebody came up to us and said, hey I've been praying, I don't know who you are, but I feel like I've got a word for from God for you.
Which I was like oh right okay, and she just basically said you know God wants you to know he's got some heavenly land for you.
Now for me that was pretty amazing early on in the journey to travel halfway across the planet and somebody to tell me something like that.
So I just had a had a chat with my team right and I said you know I've got this word that God's got some land and one of my team just said well I'll just ask him where it is.
She said that'll save us a lot of time and money and I just sort of laughed, I went yeah okay.
And so she basically prayed and you know sent me a google map with this piece of land circled and said either this is the land or the person who owns it is going to be significant for the project.
And then but what when she sent it through what she didn't know was two days previous the guy who owned that land had emailed me and asked to meet with me which is mad and so then I meet with him and he basically the end of the meeting God had spoken to me in 2004 to build a landmark.
He then told me that God had spoken to him in 2003 to build a landmark. And I'd never told you about...
You mean God was ahead of you, surely not.
Yeah I know, I know well that has been one of my major lessons on this 20 year journey he has a better plan than me and yeah so incredible so he decided to give me some land I didn't tell him about the land that the woman had circled and basically he gave me a number of bits of land which didn't work and then eventually he paid an architect to look at all the land they owned in the UK and he came back with the piece that the woman had circled which is just outside Birmingham which is 90 miles north of London in between two motorways where you know.
I think it's sort of about 800,000 people will see. It'll have that much impact so.
That's great but then the massive hurdle on top of that is how do you get how do you get planning and and in context of we're talking about a country where you can lose your job for wearing a cross, you know.
we we are now I think, you know, in in recent days somebody has got arrested for praying you know outside silently praying so we're now we now live in a country we're in certain parts of the country it is illegal for a Christian to silently pray.
I mean it's an incredible move so for me on that journey peter i'm talking to people about this great vision and everyone's going oh that's really nice rich yeah that's great and inside they're thinking he is never getting the planning permission he is never getting the planning permission but but one of the things that I've discovered I was expecting it to be an immense battle and and it wasn't as as much as I thought there were multi-faith objections, but my argument was hey we do live in a multi-faith society in this country.
But I love the fact that we live in a multi-faith society because we have the freedom to express our faith and this is how we as a faith want to express it and actually the planning consultant did a brilliant job of demonstrating that their multi-faith policy is couldn't restrict them from giving us permission, because it wasn't multi-faith.
So you know it was a long process, COVID hit in the middle, but we just kept on going and you know through through a lot of prayer we pretty much turned around the council that was 14-0 against to to winning 13-0 with one abstention.
And the council are all behind us they're very, very positive.
They appreciate the sensitivity in which we're approaching this because in our education center, we will have a piece where we say, well, this is what other faiths believe about prayer.
I don't think we need to be shy about that.
And I'm very happy for people to come and make their own decisions.
But the beauty of the project is you're creating a piece of art that allows people the space and time to consider whether Jesus is alive and whether they should pray and as long as you do that in the appropriate sensitive way I think it's okay.
Obviously, for the council it's a massive bonus that we're building a national landmark that I think we did an economic report that said it's going to generate 1.2 billion for the local economy in 10 years.
So, you know there were practical economic reasons why they were positive but I didn't get the degree of opposition I was expecting in that respect.
As a sidestep I would also love to get to Reading California but never been able to get there I've tried on two occasions and both times God's put a block so I'm hoping for the third time.
I can pigeonhole you now immediately, Richard.
But it's that opposition, because this is about prayer.
It can be general.
People can see it as general.
You talk to those who are not Christians who say at times of crisis they pray.
Say, well, who are you praying to?
And that's a confusing topic for them when they don't actually believe in any greater being, in any creator. But what were the conversations?
Because, again, we live in a very multicultural society.
We live in a society where under 50% say they probably believe in God.
Church attendance has fallen.
And you're probably doing what, in effect, the church should be doing, but maybe has taken a backseat on this.
But tell us about the conversations you have with local authority, with councils as you're putting forward.
What was that like?
Because you talked about full opposition to full acceptance.
Well, I think in some respects, the narrative that we are a secular society is false.
I don't believe that is the truth.
And so we're spun statistics that just aren't true.
We did some research just after COVID and 50% of 25 to 18 year olds said that they prayed at least once a month.
Now, when that was presented on the BBC, they spun that. And they spun it to say, well, there's a rise in Islam and a rise in Sikhism.
And I was like, that is not what the statistics say.
That's not what the research says.
Richard Gamble:
[22:15] And you can go online and see me getting quite cross on the BBC.
But the reality was those statistics were 56% of people said that they were Christian.
I think it was seven percent said they were Muslim so the statistics don't bear that out and I think even that the narrative of like oh well the church is in decline. I don't believe that, that is not what i'm seeing and what I'm seeing. I'm in a unique position because I'm traveling around churches all over the country to share about this vision and what i'm seeing is that there are pockets of churches that are seeing explosive growth in this country and that growth is predominantly you know in your sort of 15 to 25 year olds who of of a younger generation coming through who want certainty. You know their identity is is based in the in the certainty of of the word of God and they're attracted to it.
So I think when you present that as a with a with more sort of statistics to back it up it shows that this is of interest and you know one of the surprising things for me Peter on the journey is the amount of people who are, I mean the most of the opposition I've had has been church-based opposition and
Richard Gamble:
[23:49] for people who don't have a faith.
They they love it it's it's so encouraging you know we have people we had a guy put up a sign in our office he was like this is amazing and just took loads of brochures from us just went off and told everybody about it.
So, I think when this goes up in 2027 it's going to have a major impact not only on the nation but I think it was it'll spread across the nations.
I think it's the time in a God that we're building this and I personally believe it like I spoke in the revival that's coming.
Yeah, 100 percent with you.
Another concept of this is look we have many statues of saints and churches covered with paintings of Jesus but that's focused on the person of God where this focuses on the relationship with God, because you there's no way you can look at prayer, you've an image of God and that's an image, but this is a direct link to Who God is and that's why this is something I think fairly different
Yeah, and and I think people when they hear of the title eternal wall of answered prayer often think that we are sort of promoting a what I would call a supermarket God.
You present your list and you get all the things well you know that has definitely not been my experience over the last 20 years trying to build this and so you're gonna have a whole range of stories in there and some of them are immediate wows, you know, we had one come in yesterday of a person with a brain aneurysm that got healed and you read it like, wow.
This is just amazing, but then other stories are stories of people who've waited 50 years for God to answer their prayer and then other stories are you know this is what I prayed but the answer was no.
And this is how God helped me through my through the suffering of that answer.
And what people, I think, will be surprised about, and you've absolutely hit the nail on the head, is this is about relationship.
It's about having a relationship. And we want to really encourage people to share loads of stories that then paint that picture.
And, you know, a million is a huge number.
I mean, again, my naivety.
I just went, oh, let's just do a million.
That sounds good I mean if we put if we put a million Lego bricks on top of each other it would reach into the stratosphere that's how big a million is, so a million stores is a lot, but for people who come whether they visit or whether they visit online if somebody's in Dallas and they go onto the database they may ask the question, well does god answer prayer in Dallas and they'll be able to search through the database and find stories from the place that they live wherever they are in the world.
They've only got to find one story that they believe in and it's going to rock their world and that's what we're trying to achieve right that's our way of making hope visible.
Think people the term unanswered prayer makes people come up with an idea that God chooses to ignore prayer yet the flip side is which I know I'm sure will come across the educational center is that that unanswered prayer means prayer that God has said wait or has not said yes or no there only is one of two answers this is binary it's yes or no in terms of answer it's never a ignore.
Yeah, I think there is yeah.
I totally agree, I don't really bide for the the philosophy or theology of unanswered prayer.
I think it is a, I think it is a comfort for many people to not press into God and to stop praying.
I don't want to be glib about that.
I've had many, many times where God has not answered prayer in the way that I would like, and that does cause pain.
So I know that a lot of people would swap all those answered prayers that they have had for the one to keep their loved one with them.
I get that.
but I think God is I think god is less interested in the moment when the prayer is answered or isn't answered and more interested in the relationship and the journey that we that we travel.
And that's the message that we've got to get out to the nation, because as you've touched on you know the church is largely on mute in this country.
It's been put on mute by by different strategies and we've got to break open to that to say that actually our relationship's available for everybody.
I heard somebody saying it was a very interesting comment, they said you know in relation to the guy who was healed at the pool of best said a is that the right way to say it, and they said you know if that happened in the modern day journalists would be all over, interviewing the 1,990 people who didn't get healed and say well how did you feel about that, And that's the trap, I think, on an answer prayer is that instead of people going, wow, that's amazing.
God did that.
They go, yeah, but why didn't he do this? And why didn't he do that?
We're not getting involved in that.
We are very simply going, we're just going to tell you loads of stories. I'm going to tell you loads of stories of the amazing things that he's done. And, you know, we're having those stories fly.
And I've got two stories about God helping people to move jeeps out of sand dunes. I mean, that's just ridiculous.
I never thought we'd get that.
But it's incredible to see them come in.
And it will be, I think, an absolute treasure trove for people once we're up and running.
Well, people will learn that God is creative, if nothing else.
But at the top of the website, there's a tagline, making hope visible, which is a really interesting idea, because hope, according to the world's thinking, is kind of that expectation or desire for something to happen.
And it's not really rooted in reality as such.
We could unpack the whole concept, but what do you mean by making hope visible?
Cause hope as maybe a feeling is something that's hidden, but you want to put this on one of the largest monuments in the world.
So what do you mean making hope visible?
I suppose, I suppose the best way, let me describe it like this, is if I can describe it in a single story, I was diagnosed 30-odd years ago with a disease called Ankylosing Spondylitis, which causes extreme curvature of the back, and met with the doctor, and he basically said, you know, it's going to move up your back, and as it moves up, as it gets to the top, I mean, these are his words, he went, you're screwed.
And I just went out of that, out of that surgery going, I was quite angry and I was like I'm not gonna have those words over my life.
I know that he's an expert.
he's trying to do his best, but i'm not gonna let that overall what the word of God says about me.
Now I spent a good 15 to 20 years praying to be healed and I was healed.
So, we often live in a culture where fear-mongering despair.
You know bad news which we touched on the beginning is is all that's ever broadcast, so I'm imagining somebody who maybe is diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis, and loses hope and they whether they're digitally visiting or physically visiting find my story and then that gives them hope that there is a there is an alternative, that the facts that they've been presented with are not the truth.
They're the facts but they're not necessarily the truth, and so it hopefully moves them into a dynamic of like there's an alternative here I can pray.
And that way, we are stacking together a million bricks to actually declare to the nations that there's a whole load of hope here.
There's a whole load of evidence that can change your mindset and your paradigm that you're currently operating in.
Does that make sense?
Oh, it does.
And I think it's a concept which sometimes, well, many Christians struggle with, but the world 100% struggles. And there's a verse in the New Testament that's well-known, often read at weddings and written by Apostle Paul to the church in Corinth, which is just west of Athens.
And it's 1 Corinthians 13, 13.
It says, now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the grace of these is love. I think people have an understanding.
All those three concepts are utterly under attack.
And people are questioning what it means.
But hope is faith and love, people maybe understand, because there's a worldly understanding of what they are.
But it's interesting, this term hope, that it's one of those three, I think, which people maybe struggle to grasp and understand.
Because in Christianity, in the Bible, it's rooted on absolute, and that is God.
where in the world it's shifting sands and therefore people don't have that foundation or root so they don't have any hope in anything.
Yeah, and I, you know, my journey in this impossible journey to build a national landmark and we are hey listen we're starting in march we're going to make a big big announcement next year.
I've had to constantly at times on a daily basis recalibrate my mind and my soul and my spirit, because you get a barrage of you can't do it, it ain't going to happen, you're never going to raise the money, you'll never get the stories, you'll never get the planning permission, no architect's ever going to want to design this, and you know the list is massive, but where I get my hope from is I look at the stories where God has done things on the journey that no man could do.
And that hope then causes me to pray for the next obstacle to overcome and that hope then over time transforms into faith which is the conviction that it's going to happen.
And so we are I think going to be a catalyst for literally millions of people to begin that hope journey which we trust will transform to a faith and a conviction that God can.
And this is all another word that comes into mind is thankfulness. And I think we often take things without giving thanks. And the Bible is full of stories.
I mean, the lepers, when Jesus healed 10 lepers and one came back and thanked Jesus. I think we are often guilty of a lack of gratitude.
And I know that's often not talked about in a worldly context.
You can have write down your your thoughts of gratitude each day, your journaling all of that.
Well it was written in the bible a long time ago this concept of thankfulness and such a public monument of gratefulness I think it'll be extremely powerful
Yeah, and I think it's it's something that doesn't naturally sit in our culture.
And if you look at Israel, you know, with their thanksgiving.
Their remembrance of the Passover, you know, that thread runs through the Bible and you know I wrote a book simply called Remember which just looks at the way that the importance of that remembrance and thankfulness and appreciation of what God has done and continually revisiting that.
And the importance of that and we we are in this sort of like throwaway society which I think has actually influenced Christianity where people are praying God is answering and half the time they don't even notice he's answered and if they do they They just go, well, that's great, and then move on to the next one.
So there are many layers, I think, to what we're trying to achieve here.
And I just and I hope even even the act, if you like, the the the process of Christians going, oh, I wonder what break I shall have.
I mean, I'm hearing of loads of people going, oh, I don't I don't know if I've got to answer my prayer.
Then they they spend 20 minutes thinking about it and suddenly they get a great list and they're thankful and it restores their faith they renews them.
So, hope some of your listeners will do that for us that'd be amazing.
No, definitely go to the website and see have a think of how God has intervened in in your life and whether it's big or small we are called to to give glory to God and respond to that.
And the Bible is it's actually for one other term in the Bible is there are a number of cases whenever a prophet or the angel comes says the Lord has answered your prayer and I kind of think we live in a society where we would say which prayer, because we just come with our shopping list and you talked about the concept of pressing in and because we don't focus on one issue or a number of issues we kind of well we pray that I say move on to something else.
And there's this idea of actually holding on to something you need or believe in and you don't let go as Jacob you don't let go until you get an answer.
Yeah there's a great song out at the moment called don't stop praying by Matthew west and it's great challenge but again that's the short term is, you know, I've you mentioned it's a bit of a Noah project when you look at Noah most of his time was spent waiting.
You know he had very little action to be truthful most of the time he's just banging about waiting for god to do the next thing and but again as i said that's the process and the journey of going deeper with god if god just said yes all the time we we'd never learn about him we'd never learn his ways which is more precious than any answer and more precious than than gold and silver I think there's a film with Jim Carrey isn't there when he's got Bruce Almighty that's it and he just says yes all the time it's a disaster and you know i'd probably be easier to get answered prayers but i'm, God loves us so much to hold back those answers at times so that we really get to know him better.
And we often draw closer to him in the valleys than we do on the top of the mountain.
Yeah.
And also the idea of prayer being public and private.
We think in the UK it's something, private prayer.
You go to other churches and it's very public with everyone praying at once.
You've got different concepts or ideas, but I think we often forget that actually in the UK, we did have national days of prayer, certainly during Second World War.
I think there were six or seven days called for prayer.
One of the first was the evacuation at Dunkirk.
And I think something like this, this concept, this wall of answered prayer can point us towards, again, the act of calling the nation to prayer, because we've a lot to pray about in our nation.
Yeah, yeah, that's very good.
That's a very good point.
And encouraging people to pray big prayers.
We've just, I don't want to advertise a competing podcast, but I will give it a go.
We're in the middle of a podcast called When We Prayed, which is capturing what actually happened on the seven times that the King of England called the nation to pray during the Second World War.
And some of the stories are incredible.
the Dunkirk story that you point out I think is particularly poignant because the reality was Churchill was told we'd get 30 000 soldiers off the king off the beaches.
The king called the nation to pray, there's records of over a million people praying in churches and then we see a number of miracles.
Hitler changes his mind makes one of the worst military decisions in history.
We see we see bizarre weather patterns that causes planes to not be able to take off and yet you know by the sea that the the sea is described like glass and all of those we have incredible immunity of soldiers where they're shot down, they all lie down in the sand, get up and see their silhouettes in bullets, but they're unharmed.
I mean, some incredible things happen.
But that story of Dunkirk, two generations on, has been lost.
You know, it's the film by Christopher Nolan doesn't even mention prayer.
It's all put down to the courage of men on boats, which, again, I believe is part of the answer to prayer, that men were so courageous to do that.
And we've put out a video about this. And then you get loads of people going, no, no, no, it wasn't that.
Well, God wasn't involved, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And unless we go well hang on a second if God wasn't involved then why did the whole nation, have a day of thanksgiving to God only a few days afterwards, because they knew it was it was a move of the divine.
But two generations later we've forgotten it, and I and and you see that of course in the Bible where they forget the things that God has done you know as they escape from Egypt.
So, part of our role at Eternal War is to capture all those stories of answered prayer through history.
So we are capturing stories from 500 BC, 500 AD, sorry, not BC, 500 AD, all the way through to the present day.
You know we are grabbing stories of people being raised from the dead in the north of Scotland you know some incredible stories.
And and we believe that we can demonstrate to people and we're going to do the same in countries all over the world but demonstrate to people that actually god's been active he's been active all this time it's just been forgotten.
Let me finish off just on how people can be involved.
They go to the website.
They can have a think.
When they finish this, sit and have a think about, actually, you've prayed and how God has answered. Even if you don't click on that link, that's a very important endeavor.
But people can also donate.
They can play a part financially.
They can maybe even send the website to maybe church leaders.
Because it's not just the individual.
It's about actually churches getting behind.
So just maybe touch on some of those to leave people with action points they can take away.
Yeah.
Well, first point then, we're a broad church.
We want to have, you know, the vast majority, I won't say all, but the vast majority of the church believes that you can pray and God can answer.
So we had 400 church leaders on the land praying together, an incredible show of unity.
The more churches we have across the world involved in this the better secondly, we need finance I'm pleased to say that we're in we're in really good shape so we'll be signing contracts very soon to begin the building but we still need more, so please get on board and help us.
18 000 people have done so far an incredible crowdfunded national landmark, but more precious than those two is your actual story.
And you can do that by video by audio you can do that by written word and just go online and I would say you know if you're in England if you're in the UK sorry have a cup of tea if you're in the states maybe a coffee would be better and just spend, give us 20 minutes of your life, to just think about what God has done and you will not be discouraged.
And then share those stories with us and those stories will then be shared around the globe for perpetuity and people will read your stories over time in this century, in the next century, maybe beyond and you are going to help people find the god who answers and what greater privilege is there than that in life completely.
So, I looking forward to this make sure the viewers listeners are are part of it the eternal wall of answered prayer which I think will not just be a physical monument, but actually will be a spiritual monument to the nation.
So Richard thank you for coming on, and I mean a slightly different focus and podcast but it's essential that this is successful and is built and that I will certainly want to be there to see it when they're the ribbon is cut and to see what God has done to bring it together so thank you so much for coming on and sharing the story of the wall of answer prayer
Thanks very much for your time peter.
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